• We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.

Getting my cabinet "moving"

Omri Bazelet

Inspired
Hi there! I have a question/concern
Sometimes the AX3 with a SS Power amp sounds a bit "back" like it played through monitor speakers.
I sat onto the cabinet itself and connected a simple fender modelibg tube amp in the high gain mode. MAN THAT THING SIMPLY ROCKED THE ENTIRE CANINET.
I could actually feel the attack and speaker react to that low end response so well no matter how fast I pick.

So, I tried to connect my AX3 and see if the cabinet, in that volume realm - will react the same. And it always like it Tamed.
Why is that?
 

Chris Hurley

Experienced
I've had the same experience over and over. The solid state Amp is just dead by comparison. I'm actively searching for the right combination where I can get the "magic" with my Fractal with poweramp sims on and a solid state amp. The Fractal is wonderful as a preamp into an FX return (with power amp sims off), but of course I'd prefer to get the full simulation and enjoy the benefits of a solid state amp.

I've read about adjusting the LF resonance to find the point where the cabinet becomes sympathetic. I've yet to really notice a big difference when doing that so maybe my procedure is wrong. One of the things that is "dead" about the solid state amp is the high end, so I know there is another component as well.

I'm using an Avatar Forte 1x12 with CV75 speaker. Sounds great with any tube amp I try- commonly a Randall RM50 or an Egnater Mod50 but also a Friedman Smallbox, BE100, JJ Jr, Synergy Syn-30 or Syn-50... Basically any tube amp I've tried- its not a specific amp head. The modelling rig sounds dead with my Matrix GT1000fx, a PV1200 PA amp, a Rolls stereo power amp. Same experience with my other cabs- this just happens to be my favorite. Without comparing, it sounds fine but as soon as you compare it to the tube amp, you really notice a substantial difference.

I also have a Fryette Powerstation- Although this device is designed to reamp a loaded-down tube amp, it sounds way too exaggerated when you run the Fractal into it without neutering the speaker impedance curves. I've never gotten a good explanation for that beyond "Its not a tube amp and you shouldn't be surprised that it doesn't behave like one." I suspect there is something else going on where either the amp or the load inside that device compensates for the other. Even with the neutered speaker impedance curves, the combination doesn't really sound like the real amp.

Last night I ran my tube amp into the powerstation load and then line'd out into the Matrix (instead of using the powerstation tube amp) or the Rolls. This is a reactively loaded tube amp at that point, but the result still sounded dead.

On the surface, it looks to me like having the tube amp drive the speakers is the key to the "magic" amp experience, but as I said above- I am actively searching for the right combination where I can get the magic using my Fractal with power amp sims "on".

Before the hordes pile on: I love the Fractal. That's why I'm asking the question. I love it and I want to get the maximum enjoyment from it. No other device gets as close, so this is the only shot for me to get that last little bit of the equation. Using it into the FX return with poweramp sims off obviously works but its a big sacrifice. If there is a way to "have it all" or get really close, I'd love to find it. Maybe the answer is "you can't".
 

biggness

Power User
I've had the same experience over and over. The solid state Amp is just dead by comparison. I'm actively searching for the right combination where I can get the "magic" with my Fractal with poweramp sims on and a solid state amp. The Fractal is wonderful as a preamp into an FX return (with power amp sims off), but of course I'd prefer to get the full simulation and enjoy the benefits of a solid state amp.

I've read about adjusting the LF resonance to find the point where the cabinet becomes sympathetic. I've yet to really notice a big difference when doing that so maybe my procedure is wrong. One of the things that is "dead" about the solid state amp is the high end, so I know there is another component as well.

I'm using an Avatar Forte 1x12 with CV75 speaker. Sounds great with any tube amp I try- commonly a Randall RM50 or an Egnater Mod50 but also a Friedman Smallbox, BE100, JJ Jr, Synergy Syn-30 or Syn-50... Basically any tube amp I've tried- its not a specific amp head. The modelling rig sounds dead with my Matrix GT1000fx, a PV1200 PA amp, a Rolls stereo power amp. Same experience with my other cabs- this just happens to be my favorite. Without comparing, it sounds fine but as soon as you compare it to the tube amp, you really notice a substantial difference.

I also have a Fryette Powerstation- Although this device is designed to reamp a loaded-down tube amp, it sounds way too exaggerated when you run the Fractal into it without neutering the speaker impedance curves. I've never gotten a good explanation for that beyond "Its not a tube amp and you shouldn't be surprised that it doesn't behave like one." I suspect there is something else going on where either the amp or the load inside that device compensates for the other. Even with the neutered speaker impedance curves, the combination doesn't really sound like the real amp.

Last night I ran my tube amp into the powerstation load and then line'd out into the Matrix (instead of using the powerstation tube amp) or the Rolls. This is a reactively loaded tube amp at that point, but the result still sounded dead.

On the surface, it looks to me like having the tube amp drive the speakers is the key to the "magic" amp experience, but as I said above- I am actively searching for the right combination where I can get the magic using my Fractal with power amp sims "on".

Before the hordes pile on: I love the Fractal. That's why I'm asking the question. I love it and I want to get the maximum enjoyment from it. No other device gets as close, so this is the only shot for me to get that last little bit of the equation. Using it into the FX return with poweramp sims off obviously works but its a big sacrifice. If there is a way to "have it all" or get really close, I'd love to find it. Maybe the answer is "you can't".
I do believe that toroidal transformers, what's in all your solidstate amps you've listed, is the weak link here.

I remember somewhere around 2008/2009ish Cliff and even Jay Mitchell, saying to stay away from for audio quality and feel. This came up in a discussion about the then hugely popular choice, ART SLA-2, since it uses one.

I remember both them saying to choose an EI-frame power amp with eight times the power of what ever cab you were going to be driving to account for the way a tube based power amp releases power and "punch."

I can't find the discussion to link anymore because it was on the old BB Based forum, which no longer exists.

If you do a bit of research about toroidal vs ei-frame, you'll find a large serving of folk agreeing that toroidal is weaksauce.
 

yek

Legend!
The Power Station (with Resonance neutralized on the Axe-Fx) was my favorite amplification setup. Lows and highs were just a little more "organic".

But with the introduction of the impedance curves, Cygnus etc., there's not much difference anymore compared to my Matrix.

@Chris Hurley , procedures for finding and setting the correct Low Resonant Frequency with your cab are here:
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...d_thump_from_my_traditional_guitar_cabinet.3F

Setting the Resonant Frequency really works if you want to "feel" the cabinet on stage.
 

Chris Hurley

Experienced
I do believe that toroidal transformers, what's in all your solidstate amps you've listed, is the weak link here.

I remember somewhere around 2008/2009ish Cliff and even Jay Mitchell, saying to stay away from for audio quality and feel. This came up in a discussion about the then hugely popular choice, ART SLA-2, since it uses one.

I remember both them saying to choose an EI-frame power amp with eight times the power of what ever cab you were going to be driving to account for the way a tube based power amp releases power and "punch."

I can't find the discussion to link anymore because it was on the old BB Based forum, which no longer exists.

If you do a bit of research about toroidal vs ei-frame, you'll find a large serving of folk agreeing that toroidal is weaksauce.

Maybe. The PV1200 is a heavy brute with plenty of power and while I haven't opened it, I'd be willing to bet it has traditional transformers.

Also, I don't think the Matrix is in the same category because it has a switching power supply (the key to its weight) so the transformer discussion would be completely different.

These amps don't sound anemic. That's not the problem I'm experiencing and my apologies to the OP if I'm hijacking. Its not exactly anemic- its dead.

"Uncanny valley" for guitar tone.

And it happens at low volumes, high volumes, mid volumes... Its not volume specific. Even a lower powered solid state amp should be able to manage at lower volumes.
 
Last edited:

Chris Hurley

Experienced
The Power Station (with Resonance neutralized on the Axe-Fx) was my favorite amplification setup. Lows and highs were just a little more "organic".

But with the introduction of the impedance curves, Cygnus etc., there's not much difference anymore compared to my Matrix.

@Chris Hurley , procedures for finding and setting the correct Low Resonant Frequency with your cab are here:
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...d_thump_from_my_traditional_guitar_cabinet.3F

Setting the Resonant Frequency really works if you want to "feel" the cabinet on stage.

Thanks for that, Yek. I've read your comments on the Power Station. I'll say I've not really bonded with it either compared to a real amp but it at least works in its normal use as a load and re-amper without killing the experience of playing the amp. I don't know why its different in that duty than as a poweramp.

I'll check out that procedure and give it another go. (edit: I've done that before and it didn't seem to make much of a difference but I'll try it again.)
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
The Power Station (with Resonance neutralized on the Axe-Fx) was my favorite amplification setup. Lows and highs were just a little more "organic".

But with the introduction of the impedance curves, Cygnus etc., there's not much difference anymore compared to my Matrix.

@Chris Hurley , procedures for finding and setting the correct Low Resonant Frequency with your cab are here:
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...d_thump_from_my_traditional_guitar_cabinet.3F

Setting the Resonant Frequency really works if you want to "feel" the cabinet on stage.
I often do A/B tests with a real amp into a cab and an Axe-Fx into a Matrix into the same cab. The cab is a stereo 2x12, once side is the real amp the other is the Axe-Fx.

Once I adjust the impedance curve there is no difference in "movement" between the two and, if anything, the Axe-Fx often sounds better because it has less noise and hum.
 

Chris Hurley

Experienced
I often do A/B tests with a real amp into a cab and an Axe-Fx into a Matrix into the same cab. The cab is a stereo 2x12, once side is the real amp the other is the Axe-Fx.

Once I adjust the impedance curve there is no difference in "movement" between the two and, if anything, the Axe-Fx often sounds better because it has less noise and hum.

Is that adjustment limited to getting the LF resonance in the right frequency or does it go beyond that? Also, does the comparison hold up as you change volumes or do you have to readjust to maintain parity?

This is the holy grail experience that everyone wants- the Axe-Fx experience matches the real experience and then betters it due to better noise performance, plus all of the stuff you can't easily do on the real amp. I just haven't gotten there yet- using an amp switcher, not a stereo cabinet.

I've started using the virtual amp's master volume to try to better mirror what is happening with the real amp. I'm still chasing it... Your comments in this area of experimentation are very appreciated.

I am very invested in making it work. I've had every generation of Fractal gear going back to the Ultra.
 
Last edited:

mixermang

Inspired
Is that adjustment limited to getting the LF resonance in the right frequency or does it go beyond that?

there's a time element involved too, with the speaker compression parameter high enough and master volume compressing, the speaker time constant parameter can tune how fast or slow the low end resonance flexes and returns. Once you have speaker LF resonance centered in a good sounding spot you can tune speaker time while chugging until it lines up right with master volume compression, so they both flex and return at the same rate. With Recto 2 master at ~1.3 and LF resonance at ~85Hz for me it was like ~700ms of speaker time constant where everything started dancing together. bring bias excursion time up to ~6ms too and see if it doesn't purr like crazy
 

Chris Hurley

Experienced

Brian Angiel

Inspired
Awesome. Were you able to do anything with them? Perhaps recreate them on the speaker curve tab, since there isn't yet a way to import them? And more importantly, what was the "result"?
I simply used my measurements to find an Impedance Curve that looked like my measurement. The Large Recto and Brit TV both matched pretty well, and I ended up liking the Brit TV curve over the Recto curve—sounded more open to me.
 

BBN

Fractal Fanatic
The Power Station (with Resonance neutralized on the Axe-Fx) was my favorite amplification setup. Lows and highs were just a little more "organic".

But with the introduction of the impedance curves, Cygnus etc., there's not much difference anymore compared to my Matrix.

@Chris Hurley , procedures for finding and setting the correct Low Resonant Frequency with your cab are here:
https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/...d_thump_from_my_traditional_guitar_cabinet.3F

Setting the Resonant Frequency really works if you want to "feel" the cabinet on stage.
One thing that confuses me is step 3.
Why does it say to 'enable the Cab' (I read that is - turn the cab block back on)...but this is supposed to be getting low end through a guitar cabinet (so why would we have a Cab block in the chain)?

How do I get that low end thump from my traditional guitar cabinet?​

A modeler doesn't interact with a solid state amp and a traditional guitar cabinet in the same way that a tube power amp does. To get the traditional speaker cab to resonate, you have to select the correct low frequency (which the modeler can't automatically detect). There are three ways:

  1. Use a dedicated hardware meter (like from Daytona Audio) to measure the speaker
  2. Send a Sine wave (using the Synth block) to the speaker and change the frequency until you hear and feel the speaker resonate. Set Low Resonant Frequency in the Amp block to that frequency.
  3. Disable the Cab block in the preset. Add a Filter after the Amp block, set to Peaking, Q at 5 and Gain at 10 dB. Start at 50 Hz, play some chugga-chugga (or use the Looper) and slowly adjust the frequency until you hear and feel the cabinet resonate. Remove the filter block, enable the Cab, and set the Amp block's Low Resonant Frequency to match.
 

Thomas Obester

Inspired
Thanks for that, Yek. I've read your comments on the Power Station. I'll say I've not really bonded with it either compared to a real amp but it at least works in its normal use as a load and re-amper without killing the experience of playing the amp. I don't know why its different in that duty than as a poweramp.

I'll check out that procedure and give it another go. (edit: I've done that before and it didn't seem to make much of a difference but I'll try it again.)

I was in same situation as you are with Fryette Power Station PS-2.

I have found solution for me, which led to the point where I sold all my beloved tube amps (Friedman BE-50 dlx, Friedman JJ 100, Diezel VH4, Diezel Herbert, Mesa Boogie Road King II).

The solution that works for me is :

in Fractal :

power amp sim ON (it´s the key).
impendance curve set to reactive load.

in Power Station :

presence all the way off (tube amps always brings a lot of treble compared to SS power amps).
Depth knob - set it to 10-11 o´clock (very important when A/Bing with real amps, for some reason once you dial depth up, it´s on par with real amps, IMO even better for reasons Cliff mentioned).

Once set this way, it is everything I ever wanted from my Power Station.
I A/Bed with all my amps and once I dialed them to be dead on, I coundn´t justify to own real amps anymore, as I could dial fractal models even more to my liking. (Now I miss a bit my real Diezel VH4 :D, as Dizzy silver ch3 model sounds wrong at the moment, but I hope this will be addressed in future).

And yes, I leave power amp sim ON, even when playing at band volumes.
Here´s my video of IIC++ model, how it sounds cranked (ca. 120-123db) :
BTW, the real Boogie Mark V sounds like a toy compared to this sound when cranked :D.


Try this and let us know if that works for you :)


regards,
Tomas
 
Last edited:

craiguitar

Power User
So the way I'm understanding it is the fundemental parameter to adjust in the amp block is the LF. Say i'm using the same cabinet, would it be best to adjust all presets (Regardless of amp type) to this same frequency once it's been identified?

My other issue is when I gig, generally I will use a 2x12 cabinet for smaller venues, and a 4x12 for larger venues. Now obviously those two cabinets will have radically different resonant frequencies. So, my thinking at this point is, I create a copy of all my presets, and set the LF to match the cabinet I'm using. Then remember to load up the set of presets to match the cabinet i'm using. I'm still sending a seperate FR signal with the cab block to the desk/PA at all times. Am I on the right track here, or overthinking?
 

Thomas Obester

Inspired
So the way I'm understanding it is the fundemental parameter to adjust in the amp block is the LF. Say i'm using the same cabinet, would it be best to adjust all presets (Regardless of amp type) to this same frequency once it's been identified?

My other issue is when I gig, generally I will use a 2x12 cabinet for smaller venues, and a 4x12 for larger venues. Now obviously those two cabinets will have radically different resonant frequencies. So, my thinking at this point is, I create a copy of all my presets, and set the LF to match the cabinet I'm using. Then remember to load up the set of presets to match the cabinet i'm using. I'm still sending a seperate FR signal with the cab block to the desk/PA at all times. Am I on the right track here, or overthinking?
you need to adjust LF freq only when using SS power amp, in this case it is really important.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
So the way I'm understanding it is the fundemental parameter to adjust in the amp block is the LF. Say i'm using the same cabinet, would it be best to adjust all presets (Regardless of amp type) to this same frequency once it's been identified?

My other issue is when I gig, generally I will use a 2x12 cabinet for smaller venues, and a 4x12 for larger venues. Now obviously those two cabinets will have radically different resonant frequencies. So, my thinking at this point is, I create a copy of all my presets, and set the LF to match the cabinet I'm using. Then remember to load up the set of presets to match the cabinet i'm using. I'm still sending a seperate FR signal with the cab block to the desk/PA at all times. Am I on the right track here, or overthinking?
Yes. I've been contemplating "global" IR curves that you can select as a solution to this problem.

Another possible solution is to reduce the LF Q (and maybe frequency too) so that the resonance is more broad.
 
Top Bottom