Getting a smoother/cleaner distortion tone

M

MadMarx

New Member
Hi everyone,

So, I come to the forum on the advice of Jochen, after exchanging a few emails with him and not succeeding to fix my little problem.

It is about the sound I get in a recording situation with the axe plugged directly in the audio interface.

I need smoother/cleaner distortion tones than what I could get until now. The part of the sound I try to avoid is present in any single patch I create, but the more gain there is, the more "it" is present. Obviously, in any metal sound, since it is what I'm playing, "it" is here, and I can't find how to get rid of it. ( I can't really describe the problem differently as I feel that any other word would be misleading )

I have two recordings ( very short, about 5 seconds each ) that I made for Jochen where it is easy to hear the "unclean/not smooth" part that remains after I cleaned the tone by reducing the drives and the master of the amp. The problem is, there's apparently no tool on this board to post audio files ... ( As I write this post I don't find anything in the options. Possibly, I can send them to you via emails. it's 1Mo for each file )

The last useful thing I can say is that there's one way I can have a tone which looks like what I want. It is when I plug the Axe in my combo with the cab sim ON. Because of that, my first idea was to put two cabs in the patch, or to explore the equalization, but it was a dead end. The thing I want to avoid seems "in" the sound and only when I play through my combo without changing anything in the parameters it disappears magically.

Any new idea is welcomed, thanks.

Edit : The two recordings

 
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For starters go to soundcloud.com and sign up for a free account. There you can upload your audio files and then paste the link in this thread for us to hear.


I'm a high gain djent djent meedley meedely meedely type player...

Sent from my iPod.
 
The first thing I'd focus on would be the cab sim(s) you're using... try experimenting with different ones. You were able to get a tone you liked using a real cab (your combo), so that to me is further evidence your cab sims aren't giving you what you want.

The power amp and cab are really critical to getting a smooth sound. I once listened to the effects send signal from my real Mark IIC+ (known for a smooth overdrive sound), and I was shocked at how harsh it was compared to the even-tempered growl that emerges from the speaker, the result of the power amp and cab transforming the tone. Definately a lesson in how important those elements are for me. YMMV :).
 
I'm not a metal player at all, so my ear for this isn't ideal, but I do hear the edginess you're talking about. First thing I'd think of doing is trying all the different cabs I could to see if any of them chill out those frequencies without taking away the grind you want. If that doesn't do it, I'd start looking at the various high frequency roll-offs in the amp. Triode 2 Plate freq, Power amp hi cut, xformer hi freq and the resonance in the speaker section.
 
For recording I think you want brighter rather than darker. Try different cabs as suggested and maybe a High Pass at 125 to 140. Your direct recording patch usually will sound thin and crappy alone compared to your live alone patch. Keep in mind that it has to sit in the mix. I would even say that you want to start from scratch for each ending up with two different patches.
 
Hi again

I tried to go through the cabs again with what has been said here in mind. I still find that the one I currently use is the closer I can get to what I have in mind. Parameters that act on high frequencies don't solve my problem. The sound get darker and darker obviously, but my problem is still here.

I guess I have to see the problem differently. Do you think that my two recordings sound natural/real ? If yes, I think I'll eventually consider that the Axe-FX simply does not fit my needs.
 
I think there is some mud going on here, check out 100-300 hz, maybe even less gain (if you think there is much fuzz going on). more mids and more presence, less treble too. Just try it. It may not be the gain. Try less powerampgain and more preamp gain, to smooth it out. less "master". I don't know. Maybe nothing of this works. Maybe something of it works when you try it out. I'm not saying do this do that. I'm saying turn a bit of this and that on/off more/less to see what it does to get comfortable with it.

First of all I would say, listen to what you want to hear and compare it. I'm sure you are listening but if you are you should also know what it needs, or at least when you get familiar with the knobs. When you listen or "knob" alot you know what each knob does in terms of sonicness or audible content enough to instantly know which knob to turn when you hear what's missing. One thing is to know what's missing, another is to know what to "knob" to supply it. This turned out, as usual, way more complicated and worded than what was need for.

To sum it up: "Listen, turns knob. When has turn knobs alot, knows knob to turn. Listen, better? no? turns knob! *judo chop"
after a 8th listen I think there is too much bass going on, also the guitar seem out of tune in 0.03, first clip. And 0.01 second clip.
There is something which put me a bit off, I'm not sure it's the guitar being out of tune tho. Most likely not.
 
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What type of guitar and pickups are you using? Can you post the preset you used? I'd like to see how you have everything set.
 
Lowcut the amp block. Put a 808 drive block in before the amp block, drive at 0 and then put the level up high. Try compressing before the amp block and possibly after the cab block to boot.
 
Scott Peterson said:
Lowcut the amp block. Put a 808 drive block in before the amp block, drive at 0 and then put the level up high. Try compressing before the amp block and possibly after the cab block to boot.
Click to expand...

Thanks.

I'm not very familiar with compressor. I didn't try setting them differently than default since I'm not sure what I should do. Compressor appart, the result is interesting but this is still not that.
Here's the preset if you need to verify what I did.
filehosting.org - download page for Powerball_2.syx
 
AdamCook said:
Try my patch.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/38946/Adam's metal patch.syx

Click to expand...


Thanks

This patch is indeed ... well, I would say more clear, but the part that I don't like is still too much present for my taste. And it creates a new "problem" since I try to make a high gain preset. Obviously the gain was sacrificed on the altar of clarity.

I have once again gone through the preset with everything that I have been told until now in mind. Each time it gets a little better, but not enough. I'm really wondering if I can have the kind of sound I want.
Here's my latest patch I did exploring a different solution.
filehosting.org - download page for Powerball_2(2).syx
 
MadMarx said:
Thanks

This patch is indeed ... well, I would say more clear, but the part that I don't like is still too much present for my taste. And it creates a new "problem" since I try to make a high gain preset. Obviously the gain was sacrificed on the altar of clarity.

I have once again gone through the preset with everything that I have been told until now in mind. Each time it gets a little better, but not enough. I'm really wondering if I can have the kind of sound I want.
Here's my latest patch I did exploring a different solution.
filehosting.org - download page for Powerball_2(2).syx
Click to expand...

The guitar I used on the sample is probably not ideal for your preferences. It has a stacked-single coil in the bridge position and a bolt on maple neck. If you try this patch with a high output humbucker equipped guitar it will naturally be a little darker and higher gain.

Also, I think you will find that this patch might seem a tad too mid-heavy and low gain on its own, but when you double track it and put it in a mix it will have tons of cut, punch and clarity.
 
how about trying two amps with a little less again and low end than you'd normally use
pan one to the right and the other to the left...
they should combine to give more apparent gain and low end overall, but because there is a little less low end to start with you should retain clarity and size..

Note: make sure that the two amps you choose are either not the same, or not set up exactly the same...
for this to work they need to be a little different...
but to ensure that they don't make the tone to lean to one side in the mix they must both have the same amount of low end..
 
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clarky said:
how about trying two amps with a little less again and low end than you'd normally use
pan one to the right and the other to the left...
they should combine to give more apparent gain and low end overall, but because there is a little less low end to start with you should retain clarity and size..

Note: make sure that the two amps you choose are either not the same, or not set up exactly the same...
for this to work they need to be a little different...
but to ensure that they don't make the tone to lean to one side in the mix they must both have the same amount of low end..
Click to expand...

Thanks.

I have tried some things based on AdamCook preset but nothing appeared different enough with respect to what I want not to have.
 
MadMarx said:
Thanks.

I have tried some things based on AdamCook preset but nothing appeared different enough with respect to what I want not to have.
Click to expand...

If plugging into your combo fixes the 'problem' why don't you just capture an IR of it with the Axe and post it here, I sure would like to look at it.
 
clarky said:
how about trying two amps with a little less again and low end than you'd normally use
pan one to the right and the other to the left...
they should combine to give more apparent gain and low end overall, but because there is a little less low end to start with you should retain clarity and size..

Note: make sure that the two amps you choose are either not the same, or not set up exactly the same...
for this to work they need to be a little different...
but to ensure that they don't make the tone to lean to one side in the mix they must both have the same amount of low end..
Click to expand...

Clarky; first let me say that you are becoming a technical asset to this forum. When you say pan one amp to the left and one to the right are you suggesting that this be a stereo output. If your going to do that you could incorporate the Haas effect for a more robust tone.
 
insalacom said:
Clarky; first let me say that you are becoming a technical asset to this forum. When you say pan one amp to the left and one to the right are you suggesting that this be a stereo output. If your going to do that you could incorporate the Haas effect for a more robust tone.
Click to expand...

haaa... thanks... I'm glad to help folk in any way I can...

the config I'm suggesting is stereo in the way you set it up and hear it, but in truth it's actually two mono signals each panned wide..

amp1 / cab1 -----> left
amp2 / cab2 -----> right

this isn't quite the same as the Haas effect.. I think that's more about perceived perceived directionality

the whole thing is about mixing similar - but not identical - tones that are panned wide
the two tones should hit your ears at the same time - so you will perceive them as being dead centre in the mix..
the differences between them though will sum and subtract here and there
the summing will give a perceived boost to the tone which seems to thicken the tone overall, deepen the bass and brighten the top
but as this effect is achieved by combining the two tones, strong eq settings [either boosting the lo's and hi's or scooping the mid's] are not needed...
in addition, the miniscule differences in the higher frequencies across the stereo image will give a sense of width that furthers the sense of size..

try thinking about it this way.....
in a string quartet we have 2 violins, a viola and a cello..
between them they can play quite loud but will never have the same sense of 'size' as an orchestral string section...
seems pretty obvious I guess cos the string section is dozens of guys as opposed to just 4..
the string section though will sound more rounded, warmer, smoother, fuller and with more depth in the lows and brightness in the highs...
again this is a combination of all these individual instruments adding together overall

when you use more than one amp/cab [or in our case amp/cab emulation] a similar effect occurs and as a result you'll find that you can get away with less extreme eq, less gain / overdrive but the end result will be perceived as being a huge highly driven tone..
the beauty of the AxeII is that even with quite low gain settings, it is still highly playable and the guitar feels as though it has the sensitivity that you'd associate with much higher gain settings...

I don't yet have an AxeII of my own, but when I had the chance to try out my pals one through my own backline [all Marshall stereo power amp and pair of 4x12 cabs] we used Das Metal one side and a hot Boogie on the other.. the drive settings were remarkably low, the EQ was all 12 o'clock, and it sounded superb..
the two amps blended really well, the definition was all there, bright without fizz, deep without boom..
the end result was huge..
sounded like it'd start wars..... and finish 'em....
 
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