Getting a Rawer Sound

Adinfinitum

Adinfinitum

Experienced
When I owned my Standard, I used to point out (not complain) on not being able to get an "in the room" sound out of the Standard. Imassume it was user error. In any case, that has completely changed with the AxeII. I cannot believe how great it sounds. It is SO in the room. I'm actually at the point of selling some of my tube amps, that's how great it sounds.

Anyway, today I was ABing a Plexi patch against a Fargen Miniplex II. I was able to basically get the two close to identical. The only difference was that the Fargen had a "rawer" sound. The Axe was smoother. This difference was only noticeable within a second of switching. After that time, my ears adjust to the difference. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but I'd love some guidance in making the Axe less smooth. I've never analyzed an amps frequency signature, but is there a randomess to frequency response - meaning, are there analog frequency fluctuations independent on what signal is passing through the circuit? Is this what gives tubes amps that rawer sound or do I need to go through IRs to find a speaker that gives a rawer tone? The Fargen goes through a Greenback Celestion. I was basically using a similar 1x12 speaker in the Plexi patch as well. Any ideas?
 
That all depends on the amp cab combo... The "Uber Goober" preset sounds pretty raw.... Maybe try a can with the mic a little closer to the cone or cone/edge... The RW Mesa V30 cab with a 57 .5" or 1" is pretty raw sounding... Whether it's to your taste or not, is up to you... Cabs make a huge difference
 
Atomic FR + Axe 2. I run a Line6 M13 and a few other pedals in front of the Axe as well (Fulltone OCD, LPB-2 and a Pad)
 
Go straight in with nothing in front of the Axe-fx. Check your input levels. Can you share your preset? I'd like to take a look in order to offer a suggestion.
 
It is a patch I downloaded from the Forum - Mid Gain Plexi Treble.

Thanks Scott. I appreciate the feedback. No rush on this.
 

Attachments

  • Mid Gain Plexi Treble.syx
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Adinfinitum said:
It is a patch I downloaded from the Forum - Mid Gain Plexi Treble.

Thanks Scott. I appreciate the feedback. No rush on this.
Click to expand...

Ok - try this. I don't have my Axe-FX even here (setup for gig tomorrow) but just did this in the editor on the fly.

The gain staging was 'interesting'. ;) I dropped the filters (which were doing nothing but were pushing the amp by 10db. I simply took that out. If you need a 10db push on the amp for gain, I'd suggest doing a PEQ as I added in, though I did not do this by ear... just did it. Tweak the boost in each frequency band by ear *if* you feel you need it.

I did a lot in the amp block - turned the triode hardness to a lower value, used the low cut, changed the EQ, changed the Master Volume, zero'd out the graphic EQ, etc.. Just stuff that I'd probably do.

In your cab block, I changed the room settings to add some body. Try that before you judge it. I left your speaker and mic choices; go with your ears. I'd personally prefer some mix of the G12M-25 and G12M-20's. I'd put a 57 on one, and R121 on the other. **Note if you use the R121, set that level to -3db; the R121 adds +3db to the output.

I changed a few of the reverb settings - the predelay and tail delay and the EQ curve.

I added a second PEQ as the final block. This will sound 'thin' by itself, but once you play in a mix or with other musicians on stage, you will find it allows you to cut without cranking up your output volume. Your mix engineer will thank you. Trust me on this.

Might suck. Might rock. Try it and see. You can PM me and we can do it in real time over the phone once I have my rig back here and can do it with you. We could also do it in real time via a video conference and go from there if that's appealing.
 

Attachments

  • Mid Gain Plexi Treble(2).syx
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Some great info there Scott- this is the stuff I'm trying to get a grasp on. Trying to come up with a flow to follow.
 
Well, I just thought on a forum like this covering a device like this with the possibilities as they are, your statement would cause a heated discussion by folks who think otherwise.
I'm under the impression myself that with a good FRFR it can sound just like a real amp.
 
islandmusic said:
Well, I just thought on a forum like this covering a device like this with the possibilities as they are, your statement would cause a heated discussion by folks who think otherwise.
I'm under the impression myself that with a good FRFR it can sound just like a real amp.
Click to expand...
A real *live* amp, in the room? How can monitors push the air like an amp? I don't believe it!

Looking through the Wiki, I found:
http://wiki.fractalaudio.com/axefx2/index.php?title=Connecting_the_Axe-Fx_II:_FRFR_amplification#FR_tone said:
The tone of the Axe-Fx when using (close-mic'd) cabinet simulation is not the tone you're used to coming from a regular guitar cabinet. See Close-miked tone versus amp-in-the-room tone.
Click to expand...

That pretty much explains what I was trying to put into words.

I'm used to "in the room", directly in front of a tube amp. The psychoacoustic experience is highly stimulating. I feel the sound waves vibrate in the room, in the air, in my brain. Higher registers, on the RG8670 scream, the note "b" especially. And on the RG Metal, I Bb is loud. Pinch harmonics sound killer, too.

I've just gotten the Axe II. My very limited experience with it so far is AXE II directly into KRK monitors. Clean sound on factory preset 000 was impressive. Lead gain tones doesn't sound like an amp at all and I don't expect a live amp sound from monitors. I would, however, like to get a decent lead sound for my amateur recording (which I also need to learn how to do). The gain sounds I'm getting now are boomy and sizzly. Harmonics sound terrible.

How should I adjust the levels of my monitors to avoid the boomy/sizzly sound? Are the KRK's ok for what I'm doing? (Or should I start a separate thread?) TIA.
 
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I usually spend most of my playing time in mid-gain/crunch land and was playing with cabs/amps in the II this evening. I got a really raw, ballsy crunch tone using the FAS Rhythm amp with a stereo/dual cab: a 4x12 1960B V30 (RW) and a 4x12 Basketweave G12M-25 (RW)...it was a keeper preset. Those two cabs seem to be a great 4x12 mix for mid-gain/NMV amps.

The 4x12 1960B V30 (RW) seems to be a good mid-rich cab that mixes well with other cabs.
The 1x12 EMI Open Back (JM) is also an interesting cab to mix in as it adds a certain 'something' to the feel of upper mids that I like.

With my Ultra, I was able to mix/tune close mic'ed IR's to sound very much like my real 4x12 from a listening distance of several feet away...I did this in an A/B setup and it worked well for me. I actually made a 'better 4x12' for my FRFR use since I could tune it how I wanted.

You can also try adding a bit more Damping to an amp sim to get it into the punchier/more raw zone quickly.
 
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APE said:
Looking through the Wiki, I found:
"The tone of the Axe-Fx when using (close-mic'd) cabinet simulation is not the tone you're used to coming from a regular guitar cabinet."
That pretty much explains what I was trying to put into words.
Click to expand...
The bold is what you seem to have missed. Use a proper (far-field) cab IR (or mix of IR's), a good enough FRFR amplification system that goes as loud as you're used to, then turn your back and A/B with a tube amp. Then you'll start to have an idea if you can get "in the room" with the Axe-Fx II. Holders of some formidable theoretical and practical knowledge on the subject (one in particular comes to mind but shall not be named) opined it was absolutely possible with the first generation and the consensus seems to be the only II made it easier.

I've always had fun with my Standard, though I've never cared about "amp in the room". My amps were never as much fun to play or as easy to get great sound from.
 
APE said:
Are you expecting a real amp sound out of FRFR? I think it is not possible.
Click to expand...

I think it is; and you should try the preset before you discuss it. You might think it isn't 'real amp sound' and sucks; but at least have the courtesy to try it first.
 
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Scott Peterson said:
I think it is; and you should try the preset before you discuss it. You might think it isn't 'real amp sound' and sucks; but at least have the courtesy to try it first.
Click to expand...
I explained what and linked to the Wiki for further explanations I'm not sure what could be interpreted as discourteous about that

The old USB cable I have resulted in the "no connection" message in Axe Edit. It's probably a USB 1.0 cable (looks just like USB 2.0.). I'll happily try your patch when I am able to do so.

But as far as levels go, should I keep output 1 low and turn up the volume on my monitors? Or what? Are KRKs bad monitors for this? I don't have a mixer. TIA.
 
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APE said:
I explained what and linked to the Wiki for further explanations I'm not sure what could be interpreted as discourteous about that

The old USB cable I have resulted in the "no connection" message in Axe Edit. It's probably a USB 1.0 cable (looks just like USB 2.0.). I'll happily try your patch when I am able to do so.

But as far as levels go, should I keep output 1 low and turn up the volume on my monitors? Or what? Are KRKs bad monitors for this? I don't have a mixer. TIA.
Click to expand...

My point is that before commenting on something that 'can't' be done, it would be far better to at least try it first. Nothing more or less. Don't read too much 'snark' into my posts, I am not a dick. Honest.

Turn the output up to get proper levels into whatever you are monitoring on and turn them up as far as needed. I try to tell folks that 90db-110db is fine for really breaking down tones.
 
APE said:
A real *live* amp, in the room? How can monitors push the air like an amp? I don't believe it!

Looking through the Wiki, I found:


That pretty much explains what I was trying to put into words.

I'm used to "in the room", directly in front of a tube amp. The psychoacoustic experience is highly stimulating. I feel the sound waves vibrate in the room, in the air, in my brain. Higher registers, on the RG8670 scream, the note "b" especially. And on the RG Metal, I Bb is loud. Pinch harmonics sound killer, too.

I've just gotten the Axe II. My very limited experience with it so far is AXE II directly into KRK monitors. Clean sound on factory preset 000 was impressive. Lead gain tones doesn't sound like an amp at all and I don't expect a live amp sound from monitors. I would, however, like to get a decent lead sound for my amateur recording (which I also need to learn how to do). The gain sounds I'm getting now are boomy and sizzly. Harmonics sound terrible.

How should I adjust the levels of my monitors to avoid the boomy/sizzly sound? Are the KRK's ok for what I'm doing? (Or should I start a separate thread?) TIA.
Click to expand...

wow you are really lost, you are going to need to do lllllllllllots of reading and llllllllllllllots of experimenting, start with mark day patches. tiny monitors will nnnnnnnnever sound like a big metal sounding tube amp, but a large pair of powered monitors seem to, ( I have 2 1000 watt ev live x in my office, I can push a lot around! but again I still prefer the more produced sound of an "on the album" sorta sound; that being said I just saw Haken at the prog power fest in Atlanta, and literally thought they sounded as good as dream theater, both in ability and sound, then noticed 2 black boxes on the floor near the players and no lights on the wall of amps in the back; yep all fractal LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLive pushing air into a llllarge indoor theater.
 
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