Getting a low end 'thump in the chest' while also cutting through the mix

jonhep

jonhep

Inspired
I love low end , low mid punch. The type that EVH talks about when he describes the tone he goes after.I really like fat warm sounding overdriven amp tones. I love the tones of Blackmore (who always seems to get such a full bodied creamy tone for a strat) and Van Halen, but whenever I shoot for this kind of tone, it always seems to get lost in the mix. I know this is because the low end frequencies are the ones that get lost, compared to the higher mids which cut through. Whenever I try to tweak the EQ to correct this,I loose the low end I crave. I appreciate what sounds great playing the guitar by itself in a practice situation is not necessarily ideal in a full band situation. Does anyone have any tips for achieving low end punch or at least 'illusion of' , while cutting through in a loud heavy rock band context?
 
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It's hard to "hear what you hear" over the internet... but from what you're describing, it sounds to me your more talking about the kick drum + bass note attack more than anything the guitar contributes to a composition. As you've noticed, when you add that in for live performance, you're in the range of those aforementioned instruments and becoming a jumbled mess. In all likelihood, it sounds even worse in the audience than it does on stage for you.

I'm not trying to be harsh, just clear with what I'm saying. Please don't read into that too much.

Typically, you'll work with your band mates and your FOH engineer to cut out your notch in the spectrum. There will be some overlap between instruments - there has to be. But let each one work in it's spectrum, and the whole will sound better. It's like having a keyboard or piano player who plays very heavily with their left hand - the same issue you're having can crop up.
Now, you still *can* dial in some of that attack on the note to get a little more body - you'll want to experiment, generally starting with EQ. I'd start with a slight boost around 400Hz, and you'll want to play around with the Q as well. I'd start with a pretty narrow one and play around from there.
 
Heres an example of something I mean, listen to Eddie thumping bottom end here, sounds like there is a wall of 5150s when in fact he only mics up 3 cabs in w wet dry wet config. I know there is a flanger on, but those 5150s do have great lower mids, I used to own one. I think the new stealth version sounds even better like what is using here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrqcKmOQTnM
 
jonhep said:
Heres an example of something I mean, listen to Eddie thumping bottom end here, sounds like there is a wall of 5150s when in fact he only mics up 3 cabs in w wet dry wet config. I know there is a flanger on, but those 5150s do have great lower mids, I used to own one. I think the new stealth version sounds even better like what is using here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrqcKmOQTnM
Click to expand...

To be honest, I don't hear a ton of lows / low mids in Eddie's tone there. It feels pretty balanced. Most of that is coming from the bass (as it should). The bit of lows that is in his tone isn't competing with the bass tone, it's just rounding out good guitar tone.

The other thing to keep in mind is that you can dial in a tone that sounds good for playing solo then do a slight boost to the frequencies that will bring you out in the mix. You don't have to do a complete high pass - just make sure that the right frequency band is more prominent than those where the other instruments operate.
 
I like the "null" mic option in the cab block + proximity of 2-3.

This is a very musical thump to my ears.

Motor drive is too drastic for my taste. When I get the amount of low mid I want with motor drive, the tone is too loose for my taste. Proximity keeps it tighter.
 
I use the proximity the same way. I will vary it inversely to the volume of my monitor. It helps get that thump feel which can be rolled off if it's too much in the FOH mix.

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Yep. If it's a good mix with a great low end, 9 times out of 10 it's because it's the bass youre hearing. In most any great mixes (with the exception of groups like dreamtheatre), the low end is all kick and bass.

The guitar is usually brittle and all mids-mid highs. People with great mixes blend their bass with the guitar so well, it comes out sounding as one.
 
shadoe said:
People with great mixes blend their bass with the guitar so well, it comes out sounding as one.
Click to expand...

I remember years ago a guitar player friend of mine was all excited about a bass player they'd just hired to replace the problem child they had. I thought the first player was pretty talented - this band played covered tunes many bands wouldn't attempt - but then I went and saw them with the new bassist. Huge difference. Talking about it later, I asked what the significant change was and he said "this guy's playing is so tight with mine that we sound like an entity. When I need big low end, it's like I'm picking his bass notes at the same instant I'm picking mine."
 
Yep. A tight bass player makes all of the difference. For a referance, I put a low pass on my guitars at 90 hz. And bass at around 40. Basically guitars should fill mid to mid highs and bass should fill between 40 and 80 hz. And usually anything above 3-5 k depending on what you want it to sound like.
 
This is a very very common phenomenon for guitarists. When you hear a mixed record or live band you really don't hear how much the bassist contributes to the overall "tone" of the guitar. Especially if the bassist is good. Guitar generally doesn't (and shouldn't) sit where the bassist is.

Listen to isolated guitar tracks through studio monitors and there's way less low end than you think there is.
 
shadoe said:
bass should fill between 40 and 80 hz.
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Not really. That area clashes with the bass drum. You have to be very cautious with those frequencies. Usually a cut is made there to let the kick drum poke through easier in a mix.

The zone where the bass all but monopolizes in a mix is between 80Hz to 140Hz.
 
I know it goes against all that we've heard on this forum for quite some time but turn your cab block's low cut down near default (20hz). The big boom will return but it might muddle things.

Another option is to send out 1 with some of the global eq lows rolled off to the board (foh) and use output 2 to your own monitor and leave the lows as is.

Or let your sound man do everything for you. You are paying him right? Let him earn it.



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RoshRoslin said:
This is a very very common phenomenon for guitarists. When you hear a mixed record or live band you really don't hear how much the bassist contributes to the overall "tone" of the guitar. Especially if the bassist is good. Guitar generally doesn't (and shouldn't) sit where the bassist is.

Listen to isolated guitar tracks through studio monitors and there's way less low end than you think there is.
Click to expand...

a lot of that thump is a combination of the guitar, bass and kick drum..
think about how bands like Lamb of God, Killswitch and onwards to the Djentlemen about how powerful this rhythmic unison can be..
 
Here. I've uploaded an example. The way I mix first is by muting everything except drums and bass to make sure they have a good relationship in the bottom end (giggity). And then, I unmute guitars and make my high/low pass adjustments ac necessary.

The first bar is the full mix. The second is just the guitar. The third is Bass and drums. And, the fourth is the entire mix again. So, that you can hear everything after I've given you an example.

Keep in mind; I'm no pro. But this is what I've gathered just from experimenting/doing research/reading everything I can off of this forum.

 
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