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Getting a lot of fizz when turning the cab sim off and going to real cab

mtmartin71

Experienced
Getting noticeable fizz when using a real cab

I'm posting this here now...originally I posted in the amp and cab forum but I think this may be something else. It's kind of odd and maddening really. I used to have a Marshall 4x12. A 1960AV to be exact with well broken in V30 speakers. Now I have a Port City 2x12 OS Vertical with a M75 in the top and H75 in the bottom. When I disable the cabs or leave the cabs out of the patch, I get a noticeable fizziness that I don't recall from before. On a clean patch, I couldn't detect this issue so it's really only happening on gain patches. I did some further testing and when I enable the cab sim going through the guitar cab, the fizz goes away. when I turn off the sim, it's right there and obvious. Thoughts? I don't have a different cab anymore to A/B that nor do I have another amp head.

To describe it, the fizz is like a hiss or consistent crackle in the background just underneath the tone.
 
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clarky

Axe-Master
try playing through a Marshall 4x12 and sitting on the floor 10' away..
it'll sound all fizzy..

when you play stood up, the hi's are shooting past your knees so you don't hear them so strongly..

I reckon that angled cone is showing you all the things you couldn't hear when stood up in front of your 4x12
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
What he said. Also, when listening to things at a low volume fizz will be more noticeable. Power amp distortion can be particularly fizzy but we don't notice it because the amp is usually really loud when the power amp is distorting.
 

mtmartin71

Experienced
OK...thanks for the info. I was playing at lower volume sitting next to it for testing it out so that backs up the points. For further reference, I'm going through an Atomic Mono Block to the Port City. The power amp sims are left on. One question though...why does turning the cab sim on wash that away? Is it because it's an idealized version of a speaker cab due to being captured through a mic so that's getting removed? The tone is great through a cab...and it's weird to go back to that and then try the IRs again. I can definitely see why people love real cabs. I've been using the Ownhammer SP mixes and when I went back to them, they sound less "lively" for lack of a better word when compared to the tones coming right from the Port City. The joys of hearing!
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
OK...thanks for the info. I was playing at lower volume sitting next to it for testing it out so that backs up the points. For further reference, I'm going through an Atomic Mono Block to the Port City. The power amp sims are left on. One question though...why does turning the cab sim on wash that away? Is it because it's an idealized version of a speaker cab due to being captured through a mic so that's getting removed? The tone is great through a cab...and it's weird to go back to that and then try the IRs again. I can definitely see why people love real cabs. I've been using the Ownhammer SP mixes and when I went back to them, they sound less "lively" for lack of a better word when compared to the tones coming right from the Port City. The joys of hearing!
The Atomic is going to boost the highs which will make fizz more noticeable. A tube amp doesn't have a flat response.

Turning the cab sims on is basically putting a very steep lowpass at around 4 kHz or so which is filtering out those frequencies.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
BTW, I was sitting in my chair about 3 feet from a 4x12 A/B'ing a JCM800 to the prototype Axe-Fx II some years ago. I was astonished at all the grit and fizz coming from the amp. The model was way too smooth. I sat there just playing a major 3rd interval listening to the crackle from the amp whereas the model did not have this. The big thing was the crackle on the note decay. The amp sounded like frying bacon as the note died out. It would go "gcchhhh crackkklleee bzzzzzz". I grabbed other amps and noticed the same thing from all of them.

It was then that I realized I had a lot of work to do and spent a couple years researching how to make a digital amp modeler replicate all that stuff.

All that stuff, though, gives you note separation and helps you cut in the mix.

It turns out that tube amps do strange things when overdriven and those old concepts of soft clipping circuits are wrong. Tube amps get nasty and clip very hard and very asymmetrically.
 

J-Beard

Inspired
Before I switched to FRFR I used the power section of my 5150 III and my 412 cab. I found the same thing. Turning off the cabs produced this high gain fizz on certain patches. To me...the hardest thing about working with the AF2 are breaking old habits. In the end it doesn't matter what is on/off or where it is in the chain. All that matters is if it sounds good to you. You may find leaving the cab on in some situations works best. Don't feel like you HAVE to turn it off.

Thanks for the information too.
 

kmanick

Fractal Fanatic
I also found the same "hiss crackling sound" I actually thought my Axe Fx was defective until someone else local to me brought theirs over and it sounded exactly the same.
I now use a GEQ or a PEQ or both to either bring up or down frequencies
that my power amp and real cab either add, or are missing...............and I turn it up a bit I find driving the real cab a bit makes a huge difference.
I also found that when matching a Marshall based amp model with the Basketweave TV cab Ir , that it translates almost exact through my JSX power amp (EL-34s) and Recto 2X12 cab
so if you build patches Like I do (FRFR output1 /power amp real cab output 2) it makes like much easier if you can find a Cab IR that matches or at least comes close
to the sound of your power amp cab. I guess you could also just make an IR of your real cab too and just use that :)
matching 6L6 based power amps is somewhat more difficult, but I love the response that I get from a tube power section that I just could not coax out of any SS power amp that I tried
so I deal with it
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
I honestly thought my JCM800 was defective when I first bought it.

I had a 100w Plexi before that and bought a JCM800.

Not being used to that hash, I thought I got ripped off lol
 

Kriig

Fractal Fanatic
BTW, I was sitting in my chair about 3 feet from a 4x12 A/B'ing a JCM800 to the prototype Axe-Fx II some years ago. I was astonished at all the grit and fizz coming from the amp. The model was way too smooth. I sat there just playing a major 3rd interval listening to the crackle from the amp whereas the model did not have this. The big thing was the crackle on the note decay. The amp sounded like frying bacon as the note died out. It would go "gcchhhh crackkklleee bzzzzzz". I grabbed other amps and noticed the same thing from all of them.

It was then that I realized I had a lot of work to do and spent a couple years researching how to make a digital amp modeler replicate all that stuff.

All that stuff, though, gives you note separation and helps you cut in the mix.

It turns out that tube amps do strange things when overdriven and those old concepts of soft clipping circuits are wrong. Tube amps get nasty and clip very hard and very asymmetrically.
And a few years later it is solved.... Thanks for that. The Divided by 13 clip i have in the rec section has all that strange, chewie tube noize. At least when i play it loud at home.
 

mesaboog

Inspired
BTW, I was sitting in my chair about 3 feet from a 4x12 A/B'ing a JCM800 to the prototype Axe-Fx II some years ago. I was astonished at all the grit and fizz coming from the amp. The model was way too smooth. I sat there just playing a major 3rd interval listening to the crackle from the amp whereas the model did not have this. The big thing was the crackle on the note decay. The amp sounded like frying bacon as the note died out. It would go "gcchhhh crackkklleee bzzzzzz". I grabbed other amps and noticed the same thing from all of them.

It was then that I realized I had a lot of work to do and spent a couple years researching how to make a digital amp modeler replicate all that stuff.

All that stuff, though, gives you note separation and helps you cut in the mix.

It turns out that tube amps do strange things when overdriven and those old concepts of soft clipping circuits are wrong. Tube amps get nasty and clip very hard and very asymmetrically.
Yes, you have done an incredible job with that! I didn't notice it that much with the Gen1 Axe-Fx, but I am brand new to the II and right away noticed what you are talking about. (That "good nastiness" :) ) I think this is just one of many features that set the Axe II far and away superior to other "digital amp modelers". Thanks for the awesome product Cliff.
 

clarky

Axe-Master
BTW, I was sitting in my chair about 3 feet from a 4x12 A/B'ing a JCM800 to the prototype Axe-Fx II some years ago. I was astonished at all the grit and fizz coming from the amp..
not exactly the same scenario, but similar in a sense..

when I first started playing bigger venues I moved up to a 4x12 cab from the lil' 1x12 combo I had [a long time ago]..
I was sound checking at my first big gig [the Astoria in London]..
I set up my tone on stage... wonderful.. joyous..
out of curiosity, I went and sat on the edge of the stage about 15' to 20' away to get an audience perspective..
the top end pretty much ripped my ears off..

so for the rest of the sound check I was riffing away and wandering around the stage listening to my tone [getting a feel for the new cab]
this was when I discovered the 4x12's fire the hi's out like a beam, but the low end will wash all over the place
and also, there seemed to be a point of focus, that within 10' or so, the sound was a little mushy, but beyond that it was really clear..
don't know what the cause was.. proximity of the lower cones to the floor maybe??? ahh.. I dunno really..

anyways.. the only way to know what you really sound like is to get far enough away with your eyes roughly level with the Marshall logo..
the funny thnig is [cos I've tried it], is that if you get your tone from that perspective to sound amazing
the tone you have to work with is horrifically dark and almost unusable..

solution..
make the tone great for you under your normal playing conditions, cos that's what you have to work with
let the sound engineers sort out the mic'd tone through the monitors and FoH
let the cabs fry the front row - which serves them right for being there.. lol..
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
@clarky,

Do you stack your 4x12's now?

I remember when I played my first show with a full stack. Ouch when I was in the "ear death zone" of the top 4x12!
 

clarky

Axe-Master
@clarky,

Do you stack your 4x12's now?

I remember when I played my first show with a full stack. Ouch when I was in the "ear death zone" of the top 4x12!
I play in stereo with a pair of 4x12's so they are both on the floor side by side

and... lmao

the solution is..
make the tone great for me under my normal playing conditions, cos that's what I have to work with
let the sound engineers sort out the mic'd tone through the monitors and FoH
let the cabs fry the front row - which serves them right for being there.. lol..

edit: seriously.. my live tone is set up for me, for my ears and for the feel I want..
the reason is that it's all about creating the best possible situation for me to give the best possible performance..
within reason, the crowd can't tell an ok tone from a great one.. they just want guitar noises..
so I don't get all hung up about what they hear..
but they can tell if I'm struggling or if I'm having a party up there..
so.. I set myself up for the party and set out to entertain as best I can..
 
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TheGoatLord

Experienced
BTW, I was sitting in my chair about 3 feet from a 4x12 A/B'ing a JCM800 to the prototype Axe-Fx II some years ago. I was astonished at all the grit and fizz coming from the amp. The model was way too smooth. I sat there just playing a major 3rd interval listening to the crackle from the amp whereas the model did not have this. The big thing was the crackle on the note decay. The amp sounded like frying bacon as the note died out. It would go "gcchhhh crackkklleee bzzzzzz". I grabbed other amps and noticed the same thing from all of them.

It was then that I realized I had a lot of work to do and spent a couple years researching how to make a digital amp modeler replicate all that stuff.

All that stuff, though, gives you note separation and helps you cut in the mix.

It turns out that tube amps do strange things when overdriven and those old concepts of soft clipping circuits are wrong. Tube amps get nasty and clip very hard and very asymmetrically.

Cliff, sometimes you make me wish I took the engineering route instead of chemistry.
 

ianx

Experienced
BTW, I was sitting in my chair about 3 feet from a 4x12 A/B'ing a JCM800 to the prototype Axe-Fx II some years ago. I was astonished at all the grit and fizz coming from the amp. The model was way too smooth. I sat there just playing a major 3rd interval listening to the crackle from the amp whereas the model did not have this. The big thing was the crackle on the note decay. The amp sounded like frying bacon as the note died out. It would go "gcchhhh crackkklleee bzzzzzz". I grabbed other amps and noticed the same thing from all of them.

It was then that I realized I had a lot of work to do and spent a couple years researching how to make a digital amp modeler replicate all that stuff.

All that stuff, though, gives you note separation and helps you cut in the mix.

It turns out that tube amps do strange things when overdriven and those old concepts of soft clipping circuits are wrong. Tube amps get nasty and clip very hard and very asymmetrically.
Cliff, I appreciate your ear for detail!
I see posts about noise, fizz, buzz, hiss... If we want accuracy in the models then we have to expect the inherent noises that come with them. There's another thread discussing "hiss" in the current beta fw, as I was reading through the posts I got to thinking that all of the amps I've played through in the last 43 years have all had some type of audio idiosyncrasies.
If we want accurate models, then we should be ready to accept these same characteristics.
Bring on the snap, crackle, pop... :)
 

smcrosby

Power User
BTW, I was sitting in my chair about 3 feet from a 4x12 A/B'ing a JCM800 to the prototype Axe-Fx II some years ago. I was astonished at all the grit and fizz coming from the amp. The model was way too smooth. I sat there just playing a major 3rd interval listening to the crackle from the amp whereas the model did not have this. The big thing was the crackle on the note decay. The amp sounded like frying bacon as the note died out. It would go "gcchhhh crackkklleee bzzzzzz". I grabbed other amps and noticed the same thing from all of them.

It was then that I realized I had a lot of work to do and spent a couple years researching how to make a digital amp modeler replicate all that stuff.

All that stuff, though, gives you note separation and helps you cut in the mix.

It turns out that tube amps do strange things when overdriven and those old concepts of soft clipping circuits are wrong. Tube amps get nasty and clip very hard and very asymmetrically.
The note separation on the AXE FX II is just astonishing. :)

I tend to play (probably too many) jazz chord intervals with a little too much grit (fusiony stuff) and the AXE really really shines in this area (separation). Kudos Sensei! :encouragement:
 

ChicoClint

New Member
Another thing that just occurred to me (better late than never, as I'm sure some of you figured this out a while ago): When running the Axe through a "real" speaker cab at bedroom volume (or anything less than gig/jam volume), it's inevitable that it's going to sound a little weird/funky. In the real world, when you run a cranked tube amp through a speaker cab, you're clearly pushing the hell out of the speakers at the same time. With the Axe, you can obviously get the sound of a cranked amp at any volume, but that doesn't mean the speakers in the "real" cab are going to sound the same. As Cliff and others have mentioned, if you turn up the volume on your power amp (whatever that happens to be), the weirdness/fizziness will dissipate, because the speakers are now being pushed in a manner similar to that of being pushed by a "real" cranked tube amp. Make sense? I guess this is just another way of saying what many of you have already said in this thread. ;)
 
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