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Getting a drummer to play in time

stub

Member
John Bonham and Keith Moon both phoned in from the otherside and told me you are full of crap!!! :)
Wow. I kinda thought they'd be nicer.

So you (and these ghosts, into whose mouths you cram your opinions) are saying that if musicians play to a click then there is no room for "swing, feel, phrasing, dynamics, accents and other" elements?

The click doesn't dictate or mandate the entire grid, and players can keep a stable tempo while having lots of fun with everything else.

I found my experience of learning to play to a click to be VERY valuable. And there was definitely a stage where I learned to lock with the click but still felt very free to work within the rest of the beats to swing and phrase. If that's difficult for those ghosts to understand, that surprises me.
 

la szum

Fractal Fanatic
I am sure the feeling is likewise, but I could NEVER be in a band with some of you cats. It'd just be a
chronic hissy fit of one sort or another. ;)

I will never be locked in to being so locked in----for whom time is as much or more a subjective reality
as an objective state. Hell, if we dare study science, and the inseparable nature of space and time, one might
have an enlightened moment and realize that a "click" is an artificial superimposition of a flawed mechanical
construct over a fluid and flowing reality that will only be tied down for as long as the incessant tick tocking
of humanity lasts.
 

la szum

Fractal Fanatic
Wow. I kinda thought they'd be nicer.

So you (and these ghosts, into whose mouths you cram your opinions) are saying that if musicians play to a click then there is no room for "swing, feel, phrasing, dynamics, accents and other" elements?

The click doesn't dictate or mandate the entire grid, and players can keep a stable tempo while having lots of fun with everything else.

I found my experience of learning to play to a click to be VERY valuable. And there was definitely a stage where I learned to lock with the click but still felt very free to work within the rest of the beats to swing and phrase. If that's difficult for those ghosts to understand, that surprises me.

Really? Was trying to be funny. Bonham drifted all over the place, and the music was more compelling
because of it. So Boo! ;)

I am not shoving my opinions down anyone's mouth, nor up anyone's ass. I only stated what is pretty
common knowledge, albeit with a little artistic license. Not the first one to express these "opinions," and
pretty sure I won't be the last.

I do kind of wonder if music even existed before clocks? Hmmmmmm...... did no one sing or hum or bang sticks before
the invention of a mechanical device that divided time into bite size nuggies?? Probably not!! :)
 
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aziz

Power User
We had the most hopeless click drummer accomplish this. How? He trained hard for two months, because he wanted to play to a click in recording. Good stuff.
 

stub

Member
Really? Was trying to be funny. Bonham drifted all over the place, and the music was more compelling
because of it. So Boo! ;)

Ah. I guess I missed the joke. You and a couple famous ghosts gang up on me and call me "full of crap". Good one.
Then a little "So Boo!" as icing. I like your formula: Stab-smiley-stab-smiley.

We all get that you think you are right and we're all wrong. Clicks bad. You good. Got it.

Playing to a click and being quantized are completely different things. That's what they call a strawman. In the above example, if Bonham was playing to a slow click (quarters where snares are on 2 & 4), much of his feel and swing would have been preserved. The click dictates tempos and beats, not subdivisions, swing, dynamics, accents, feel, etc.

If all that was done was to put align the first beat of each bar of Bonham's groove to a tempo grid, the damage would be not very noticeable.
 
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la szum

Fractal Fanatic
Ah. I guess I missed the joke. You and a couple famous ghosts gang up on me and call me "full of crap". Good one.
Then a little "So Boo!" as icing. I like your formula: Stab-smiley-stab-smiley.

We all get that you think you are right and we're all wrong. Clicks bad. You good. Got it.

Playing to a click and being quantized are completely different things. That's what they call a strawman. In the above example, if Bonham was playing to a slow click (quarters where snares are on 2 & 4), much of his feel and swing would have been preserved. The click dictates tempos and beats, not subdivisions, swing, dynamics, accents, feel, etc.

If all that was done was to put align the first beat of each bar of Bonham's groove to a tempo grid, the damage would be not very noticeable.

Haha! No kidding. I figured you'd find a way to quibble. I totally understand that they are
different things. Pretty sure Bonham playing to a click is a dead topic anyways.... because he
NEVER did.

I'll let you have your points, though, even if I completely disagree with what you are trying
to drive home to me about music, drumming, John Bonham, and the conclusions you draw
about "playing to a click."

Tick Tock. :)
 

fcs101

Fractal Fanatic
Not my words. And what does he know anyways? Chick Corea... ha! :)



I agree with him...mostly. I do believe metronomes can be useful tools for practice though and shouldn't be ignored. It's a good tool to be able to push yourself and track your abilities. I use one to get a piece up to speed and then abandon it. I can say that practicing with a metronome (I actually use a BeatBuddy) makes it easier to then transition to playing with a drummer because you are already trained to listen.

I've been ignoring this thread for a bit and just came back to it. It see that click tracks became a thing up above. Robotic...that's all I can say.

Coming from a classical guitar background, it's always been ingrained in me that the tempo should be free to fluctuate in order to enhance the musical expression of the moment. Listen to any classical guitarist and the tempo is almost always in flux. When you incorporate a band though, that flux has to be managed (by the drummer). That hits on listening to what others are playing though (which I believe may have been mentioned above).

EDIT: If you're familiar with musical scores, you'll (quite often) see terms like 'accelerando' or 'ritardando' (sometimes with 'poco' attached to indicated a small degree) at certain points to indicate a desired change in tempo.

As I go, here is a great example of a song which constantly increases the tempo to great effect. This song wouldn't be the same without it.

 
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stub

Member
I figured you'd find a way to quibble.
Nice stab. Where's my smiley?

I totally understand that they [quantizing subdivisions, vs playing to a click] are
different things.

Then why did you use it as an example of how playing to a click is bad?

Maybe you're arguing against some point that no one is making.


Pretty sure Bonham playing to a click is a dead topic anyways.... because he
NEVER did.

Yea, I never said that.

I'll let you have your points, though, even if I completely disagree with what you are trying
to drive home to me about music, drumming, John Bonham, and the conclusions you draw
about "playing to a click.".... :)

The only point I made about John Bonham was that his groove would have sounded nearly or perhaps just as good if it was edited such that the tempo was steady but not quantized to subdivisions.

In my busy life as a working musician, I play to a click sometimes, I play without click most of the time. Both are fine for me. It's a skill I've enjoyed mastering. Yes, there are MANY situations and styles of music where a steady tempo and/or a click is not appropriate (as many have said on this thread).

I'm curious about whether you don't like playing to a click because it is a challenge for you and you struggle with it, or whether you've done it for ages, are really good at it, but just don't like doing it.
 
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