FW11 IIC+ vs Mark V-IIC+ - Not getting good results (Solved)

Sean Ashe

Power User
So, for the first time since Firmware 8, I decided to see if I could match my (well, now my Dad's) Mark V.

I decided to try the IIC+ mode as it's definitely a more usable sound for my purposes, and after setting up a sound I really enjoyed with the Amp (Slave out, into axe FX, for IR consistency) I then tried matching up the knobs and 5 band EQ sliders (thanks for that Cliff!) with FW11 IIC+ Bright model.

I also made sure to do some research in regards to the original IIC+ model compared to the Mark V model, which according to them the knobs 'should' match up.

I hate to say it, but it wasn't even remotely close. The biggest difference was the feel. Now before anyone says anything about 'amp in the room', I had the speaker absolutely drowned out with pillows/blankets (Poor mans isolation ftw!) and the only noise I was hearing was the lower end rumble transferring through the floor. The Axe felt REALLY plasticy in attack, while the Mesa was very fluid and natural. The closest I was able to get it, still was fairly off, and was with the fat and saturation switches engaged. The notes just weren't distorting similarly.

I also felt that with the Axe, the notes were not as '3D' as with the amp, the overtones didn't seem to blossom as much.

If anyone here knows me, you know I'm not going to be one to bash the axe so don't take it as that, and honestly out of this I'm just trying to see if I'm doing something wrong so that way I can refine my tweaking methods for the future. I know that Matt had worked with JP matching his Mark V and his IIC+, so I have a feeling I might be doing something wrong.

I didn't take any soundclips as it's getting fairly late and I don't want the low end rumble from the Mark V to disturb anyone else in the house but would of course be willing to try this again if anyone has any suggestions and tips.
 
The Mark V is a complicated amp. I had one for a number of years and loved it. I never though could get it to match the previous Marks that the modes were supposed to emulate. It would be great if we could get a model of its Channel 3 at some point...
 
The Mark V is a complicated amp. I had one for a number of years and loved it. I never though could get it to match the previous Marks that the modes were supposed to emulate. It would be great if we could get a model of its Channel 3 at some point...

I have had the same experience with Mesa Boogie amps. They always sound great when other guys are playing them and hear the sound. But when I've owned them, and tried to get a good tone out of one, I haven't done a very good job. Finicky would be the way I would describe it. Easy to make a Boogie sound bad....difficult to make a Marshall sound bad...in my experience anyways.
 
I have had the same experience with Mesa Boogie amps. They always sound great when other guys are playing them and hear the sound. But when I've owned them, and tried to get a good tone out of one, I haven't done a very good job. Finicky would be the way I would describe it. Easy to make a Boogie sound bad....difficult to make a Marshall sound bad...in my experience anyways.

I was able to get a good sound out of the Mark V in about 5 minutes, partially because I used to own the thing (gave it to my dad in trade for a macbook haha). The issue is getting the same sound in the box
 
gee I had the exact opposite today. My Mesa mark IV patches (all 4 of them) sound great with V11 thru my rokit 8's and my Fryette->2X12.
I'm not using the IIc+ model though I'm using the USA Lead Bright+. I'm actually in are of good they sound as I've been
a little frustrated with the Mark amp sims since coming off of 9.02 (where I thought they sounded great) but today I was all smiles as I was a mark IV owner
for a few years before I went "Axe" and now they sound and feel like they are supposed to.
 
gee I had the exact opposite today. My Mesa mark IV patches (all 4 of them) sound great with V11 thru my rokit 8's and my Fryette->2X12.
I'm not using the IIc+ model though I'm using the USA Lead Bright+. I'm actually in are of good they sound as I've been
a little frustrated with the Mark amp sims since coming off of 9.02 (where I thought they sounded great) but today I was all smiles as I was a mark IV owner
for a few years before I went "Axe" and now they sound and feel like they are supposed to.

Don't get me wrong, the Axe sounded good but next to the actual thing it wasn't even close.

Again, if anyone knows my history as a fractalite im fairly sure this is one of the only times ive ever had a thread like this haha.
 
oh, I'm not doubting you, I haven't tried it with V11 yet but with V10
I got the chance to run my Axe side by side with a real Dual Recto
...........................ya we don't want to talk about that
I'd love to get a meal Mark IV here again to see how close (or far off) I really am
 
Sean, thanks for your post. I've been wanting to hear from someone who's tried this with recent firmware (particularly v11). I've been running my Axe in 4CM with a IIC+ for more than two years now with great results... the Axe sounds so similar to the IIC+ that sometimes I can't tell if I'm using the Mesa's preamp or the Axe USA Lead model without looking at my foot controller to see what patch I'm on... and I'm on FW6! Having said that, in FW6 the knobs aren't set just like they are on the Mesa (first, the knobs aren't the same anyway), but just using my ears I got them very close. I've been curious to see if the Axe "knobs" react more similarly to the real ones in newer firmware.

For me, I don't care, my patches sound great, even at FW6, and I'm sure great tone is available in FW11. It's also worth noting that I have another IIC+, and even with its knobs set exactly like my other one, they don't sound "exactly" alike (although they're fairly close).
 
I have tried side by side with several of my amps
including a dumble overdrive( which i built), a 1965 Princeton, 1965 deluxe reverb,
what i have always found is that when I am playing the axe fx II on its own and not comparing side by side
I am very happy, however side by side the real thing always sounds better. Not knocking the axe though because in the
digital realm I have founding nothing else that is remotely close.
 
What is your power amp / speaker or which studio monitors are u using for axe?

I have tried side by side with several of my amps
including a dumble overdrive( which i built), a 1965 Princeton, 1965 deluxe reverb,
what i have always found is that when I am playing the axe fx II on its own and not comparing side by side
I am very happy, however side by side the real thing always sounds better. Not knocking the axe though because in the
digital realm I have founding nothing else that is remotely close.
 
I have had pretty much the same experience, Sean.

Difference in feel, attack, and distortion character. The single notes, in particular, sound slightly thinner.
The closest I've gotten is running into the Mark V FX return. It's just not quite the same.
I notice the pretty much the same fundamental differences when comparing to any amp in the room: Mark V, Friedman BE100, AFD100, EVH 5150 and a few others..

On recordings I find the difference much less noticeable (often unnoticeable in a mix), but still there.
I'm happy with the Axe-FX overall and often prefer it, but I definitely still find myself missing some of those elusive analog qualities.
I'd love for this thing to be the end all solution, but it still feels like there's a small trade-off.
I need that Feel!
 
Slave out of Mesa Mark V into the front of the Axe.

Bzzzzzzzzzt. NEVER run a slave output to the front of your Axe-Fx. You'll overdrive the heck out of the input buffer. Go into the rear inputs.

Invalid test. Try again. Also, you'd be surprised how much that little leakage through the blankets influences your perception.
 
BOOOM!!! there ya go!
Bzzzzzzzzzt. NEVER run a slave output to the front of your Axe-Fx. You'll overdrive the heck out of the input buffer. Go into the rear inputs.

Invalid test. Try again. Also, you'd be surprised how much that little leakage through the blankets influences your perception.
 
Have you tried the other USA Lead models? You might prefer the Triaxis models (Green & Yellow) if you're going for a Mark V (even in Mark IIC+ mode).

The Mark V only has 1 gain control so you might need to play with both the drive and overdrive controls on the Axe to get the same saturation and feel.
 
I have had pretty much the same experience, Sean.

Difference in feel, attack, and distortion character. The single notes, in particular, sound slightly thinner.
The closest I've gotten is running into the Mark V FX return. It's just not quite the same.
I notice the pretty much the same fundamental differences when comparing to any amp in the room: Mark V, Friedman BE100, AFD100, EVH 5150 and a few others..

On recordings I find the difference much less noticeable (often unnoticeable in a mix), but still there.
I'm happy with the Axe-FX overall and often prefer it, but I definitely still find myself missing some of those elusive analog qualities.
I'd love for this thing to be the end all solution, but it still feels like there's a small trade-off.
I need that Feel!

I totally agree! I've been using my Axe Fx 2 for sometime and haven't used my amps for awhile since I've been making patches for my band. I enjoy using the Axe Fx 2 especially because of all the different amps it has. I also can't lift my amps anymore due to back problems and recently back surgery.
I decided to turn on my amps again since I mostly record with them and use the Axe Fx for gigging.
I turn on my Marsha Friedman HBE/BE and the difference in feel is quite a lot for me!
The brightness sounds natural, something that I have to use the amp block eq to duplicate it on the Axe Fx 2
I own several Marshall's, one of them modified by David Bray, a Splawn Nitro, Vox, Groove Tube, etc.
The Ir's are getting closer, but I still prefer using my Marshall cabs and mic them for recording.
But thank God for the Axe Fx 2, because with out it, I wouldn't be able to play live!
 
Ok. I had a Mark V combo just before the Axe so my tweaking is "memory based" but still.

There are a couple of things that could be the reason why the Axe IIc+ and the MarkV IIc+ versions differ.

The biggest difference I believe is because(and correct me if I'm wrong) the Axe version is based on a GEQ-version and the MarkV version is a NON-GEQ version.

After reading the MarkV manual a couple of times were Dough West explains the reason why there is a difference between the GEQ version and the NON-GEQ version I have come closer to the Mark V version.
The GEQ version in real life according to the investigations done by Mesa Boogie has a bigger capacitor just before the GEQ sliders than the Non-GEQ version. This results in that the GEQ version has alot more low end, but because the time constant differs between the two different capacitors there is also a major difference in feel.
The GEQ version is fatter, more low end heavy and "slower" and the NON-GEQ version is tighter and faster but with less low end. These differences can be noticed in the MarkV when switching between the IIc+ and the IV modes. I used to be able to set the gain knob to 6 and still keep the bass at 5, for the IIc+ but on the IV mode I had to keep the bass at around 2 to handle the Mark bass flub.

Now back to the Axe II.
Use the low cut in the Advanced pages, both the input low cut and the power amp low cut to tighten it up. Try one of them or both at something up to 200-300 Hz, experiment!. Now it is possible to increase the bass in the preamp tab to 5 without flub. Try also the new bass cut underneath the bass knob in the preamp tab.
I also reduced the sag and increased the B+ Time constant to make the feel faster and tighter.
For me I got very close feel wise.
The missing sizzle your talking about I could make more sizzling by messing with HI FREQ and HI RES in the Speaker tab in the Amp block.

Good luck!
 
Alright I'll try it again Cliff through the rear inputs tomorrow, although I'm not too sure why the feel should be that different. Even just playing through the combo going to the axe makes me feel like I'm losing alot of life and dimension to the notes. I'm sure that can be tweaked in but I've not had this issue before, or at least just not noticed
 
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