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FW10 Amps into real cab = Astounding!

Robboman

Fractal Fanatic
I installed FW10, new banks and AE, all worked flawlessly last night. Spent about an hour at low volume. Very impressed.

Today I was blessed with time and freedom to make some noise.. thus ensued marathon 4 hour loud session. I took a break to calm down and go eat before writing this, otherwise this would have been all HOLY SHITBALLS!! type comments. It was that exciting. IMO this firmware is a major, major groundbreaking accomplishment. These amp models are SO real it's unnerving and almost scary.

I went through most of the presets using my studio monitors and various guitars, tweaking here and there on the fly. Lots of incredible sounds. Many of the new 'mix' IRs sound amazing, they have a very studio polished, professional feel. The 59 Bassman mix is dead on. Also dig the AC30 blues, the Dumbles, the Marshall basket weave cabs (esp the TV). I had not yet used the James Santiago cabs on 9.x. Those are stunning!

Next up: time to focus only on the AMPS, using my Matrix GT1000FX into my Marshall 1960a loaded with 2 G12-65s and 2 v30s. I made a preset with just drv, amp, rev and dly blocks. Cranked up to a healthy volume and I just had a blast testing out one amazing amp after another with my cab. I was laughing out loud and shouting WOW and HOLY SHIT to myself regularly. It's all just so freaking REAL! I was thinking about all those cork-sniffing guys on TGP with a room full of exotic amp heads, buying and selling them all the time chasing tone. This just really, truly feels the same as having them ALL right here in one box, only it's better still because I don't need to move/unplug/plug them in and wait for tubes to warm up. I've owned a lot of nice amps too (still have a few). The ones I'm very familiar with sound bang on perfect if not better in the Axe. Others I've heard and am not too fond of.. guess what, I'm not too fond of the Axe model either. They're the same damn thing. There's a few amps I've never owned (and could never afford)that sound pretty incredible to me and are easily better than the best tube amps I've personally owned.

One key thing about using guitar cabs - I noticed that each amp defaults to a different low res freq on the 'speaker' tab in the amp block. It seemed like every amp I tried sounded it's best with this value the same, in my case my 1960a cab sounds right with this about 80 or 85 on any amp. Pretty big difference - it sounds less real until I set this.

I'm just very excited and couldn't be happier with 10. I'm a long time user, been impressed by many past updates but this one really really blows my mind. Masterpiece!

:edit: Just to state I'm more of a low to mid gain classic rock type of tone guy, so my impressions are based on that. No djenty brutalz up here. My Fave FW10 amps to far: Fendery: 59 bassguy, new doubleverb, prince tone 2. Marshall-y: 100w Plexi Hi, Brit Silver, JVMs on lower-ish gain, JCM800, Supremo Trem gain up higher. Other standouts: the Two-Stone, ODS, Nuclear Tone.
 
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ethomas1013

Power User
One key thing about using guitar cabs - I noticed that each amp defaults to a different low res freq on the 'speaker' tab in the amp block. It seemed like every amp I tried sounded it's best with this value the same, in my case my 1960a cab sounds right with this about 80 or 85 on any amp. Pretty big difference - it sounds less real until I set this.
Now that's an interesting comment and something I hadn't considered. I have seen a thread or two about this parameter and discussion about looking up the correct value for your speaker, but it was always in reference to using IRs. I'm using a GT800 FX with a Mesa Thiele loaded with an EVM 12 L. Guess I'll have to go read some of those threads and see about setting the speaker resonance frequency to the correct value for that cab. I'm curious to hear what a difference it might make.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
The default LF Resonance is based on the cab most likely to be used with that amp. For example, if you select a Twin Reverb model it will use the resonance data from the Twin Reverb amp that we used as the reference (we measured all the cabs as well as shooting IRs). Your 1960A cab probably has its resonance around 80 Hz so ideally you would want to do exactly what you did. The ultimate solution would be to measure the LF resonance but that requires special test equipment. I've found that you can usually find it by ear though. As you adjust the LF resonance you'll hear the cabinet sympathize.

There is no way around this at the moment as no modeler can measure the impedance of a guitar cabinet (despite any claims to the contrary). However, I have an idea for the next generation of products that solves this.

Note that this is not applicable when using FRFR and IRs.
 

chris

Legend!
Oh cliff, you and your ideas!

So for us FRFR guys, would it make sense to match that resonance to our FRFR speaker? (I know this wouldn't translate to the FOH/PA necessarily.)
 

mrstrat

Experienced
I installed FW10, new banks and AE, all worked flawlessly last night. Spent about an hour at low volume. Very impressed.

Today I was blessed with time and freedom to make some noise.. thus ensued marathon 4 hour loud session. I took a break to calm down and go eat before writing this, otherwise this would have been all HOLY SHITBALLS!! type comments. It was that exciting. IMO this firmware is a major, major groundbreaking accomplishment. These amp models are SO real it's unnerving and almost scary.

I went through most of the presets using my studio monitors and various guitars, tweaking here and there on the fly. Lots of incredible sounds. Many of the new 'mix' IRs sound amazing, they have a very studio polished, professional feel. The 59 Bassman mix is dead on. Also dig the AC30 blues, the Dumbles, the Marshall basket weave cabs (esp the TV). I had not yet used the James Santiago cabs on 9.x. Those are stunning!
Were you using the Matrix into the 1960a for this or another configuration?
 

Javilynch

Inspired
I installed FW10, new banks and AE, all worked flawlessly last night. Spent about an hour at low volume. Very impressed.

Today I was blessed with time and freedom to make some noise.. thus ensued marathon 4 hour loud session. I took a break to calm down and go eat before writing this, otherwise this would have been all HOLY SHITBALLS!! type comments. It was that exciting. IMO this firmware is a major, major groundbreaking accomplishment. These amp models are SO real it's unnerving and almost scary.

I went through most of the presets using my studio monitors and various guitars, tweaking here and there on the fly. Lots of incredible sounds. Many of the new 'mix' IRs sound amazing, they have a very studio polished, professional feel. The 59 Bassman mix is dead on. Also dig the AC30 blues, the Dumbles, the Marshall basket weave cabs (esp the TV). I had not yet used the James Santiago cabs on 9.x. Those are stunning!

Next up: time to focus only on the AMPS, using my Matrix GT1000FX into my Marshall 1960a loaded with 2 G12-65s and 2 v30s. I made a preset with just drv, amp, rev and dly blocks. Cranked up to a healthy volume and I just had a blast testing out one amazing amp after another with my cab. I was laughing out loud and shouting WOW and HOLY SHIT to myself regularly. It's all just so freaking REAL! I was thinking about all those cork-sniffing guys on TGP with a room full of exotic amp heads, buying and selling them all the time chasing tone. This just really, truly feels the same as having them ALL right here in one box, only it's better still because I don't need to move/unplug/plug them in and wait for tubes to warm up. I've owned a lot of nice amps too (still have a few). The ones I'm very familiar with sound bang on perfect if not better in the Axe. Others I've heard and am not too fond of.. guess what, I'm not too fond of the Axe model either. They're the same damn thing. There's a few amps I've never owned (and could never afford)that sound pretty incredible to me and are easily better than the best tube amps I've personally owned.

One key thing about using guitar cabs - I noticed that each amp defaults to a different low res freq on the 'speaker' tab in the amp block. It seemed like every amp I tried sounded it's best with this value the same, in my case my 1960a cab sounds right with this about 80 or 85 on any amp. Pretty big difference - it sounds less real until I set this.

I'm just very excited and couldn't be happier with 10. I'm a long time user, been impressed by many past updates but this one really really blows my mind. Masterpiece!

:edit: Just to state I'm more of a low to mid gain classic rock type of tone guy, so my impressions are based on that. No djenty brutalz up here. My Fave FW10 amps to far: Fendery: 59 bassguy, new doubleverb, prince tone 2. Marshall-y: 100w Plexi Hi, Brit Silver, JVMs on lower-ish gain, JCM800, Supremo Trem gain up higher. Other standouts: the Two-Stone, ODS, Nuclear Tone.
YES, YES , YES!

I've only tried v.10 through the cornfords that I use to amplify the axe...( tube power )
Incredible....

I had never used the p.a sim with tube power ...until now....

Incredible tones!
 
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PacoCasanovas

Fractal Fanatic
Isn't the AXE II capable of doing this?
here is some speculation (forgive me Cliff)

and sorry for my english - it's not my native language....

Use the IR Capture tool - set up a power amp with a high damping factor, usually greater than 400 (no guitar power amp btw.) and put a 10Ohm resistor in series with your speaker cabinet load. Press IR capture for the sine sweep - instead of the mic'ed cabinet, the measurement goes over the resistor - some impedance/level converter would transform it into a low level signal an feed it to your axefx - instead of an cabinet IR file you get a speaker impedance IR file - and Cliff needs to make it possible to load this into the speaker tab of the amp block.

*duck and cover*
 

k2sparks

Member
I agree, I have been on the fence with power amp through my cabs until now!!! Wow its amazing now!!!!!!!!! And the Santiago"s are priceless!!!
 

Hugomack

Experienced
Isn't the AXE II capable of doing this?
The point being that an FRFR amp/cab reproduces exactly what the Axe produces; whereas a cabinet has its own characteristics, so is neither Full nor Flat - hence having to tune it to reproduce the Axe sound to it's best ability - using LF Response.... Have I got this right?
 

garyrogue

Inspired
So when you were testing this were you going FRFR with the Cab simulations active?
"I went through most of the presets using my studio monitors and various guitars, tweaking here and there on the fly. Lots of incredible sounds. Many of the new 'mix' IRs sound amazing, they have a very studio polished, professional feel. The 59 Bassman mix is dead on. Also dig the AC30 blues, the Dumbles, the Marshall basket weave cabs (esp the TV). I had not yet used the James Santiago cabs on 9.x. Those are stunning!"

And when you were using the Matrix amp into the Marshall 1960a you had the Cab Simulations bypassed? And then adjusted the LF Resonance response? Just listen to what sounds good?
"Matrix GT1000FX into my Marshall 1960a loaded with 2 G12-65s and 2 v30s. I made a preset with just drv, amp, rev and dly blocks. Cranked up to a healthy volume and I just had a blast testing out one amazing amp after another with my cab."

thanks
 

PacoCasanovas

Fractal Fanatic
Your "English" is over my head and I have lived in the US my entire life. :)
:lol

Okey: Here is some smart info

A tube amp has a higher output impedance than a transistor power amp - the relation between output impedance and the impedance of your speaker load is called damping factor. A tube guitar amp has a pretty low damping factor, while a transistor power amp has a damping factor usually around 400 or more....because a loudspeaker is a bidirectional transducer, it not just convert electrical into mechanical energy, it also produces electrical energy while moving, this cased forced back energy so called Back EMF (electromagnetic force). A speaker is not a linear load, you get the resonance frequency peak/hump (the point where the speaker will vibrate at his maximal hub) and on higher frequencies where the coil gets inductive which causes higher load - see the speaker tab in your axefx amp block - this is your impedance curve from your virtual speaker load.
A transistor power amp with a high damping factor will get this effects overlooked - not a guitar tube amplifier because of the lower damping factor. A PA amplifier in combination with a passive FRFR system (or in an active FRFR system too) don't need those impedance curve influences, but on a guitar speaker together with a tube amp, they are most welcome!
There are some modified transistor amplifier designs - specially for guitar usage , which have a little linear measurement resistor in series with your speaker load. The voltage drop on this resistor is feeded back to the input of the power amp to introduce this characteristic side effects of a guitar speaker to the power amp process. This is called "current feedback" and it's very popular on most transistor or hybrid guitar amplifiers or on various transistor guitar poweramps.

The impedance correction based on real impedance curves is possible in the axe II, it just needs a wormhole in the ampblock, which loads additional data from the speaker block - which has to be modified too - the speaker block need to translate an IR of the impedance curve of the chosen speaker cabinet along with an IR of the frequency responce of the same cabinet. This caused more data, more cpu power and more free memory to get the IR of the impedance curves stored in the axe.....

My idea is a bit different - I'll build a little measurement tool so I can measure the impedance curve along with the IR capture tool capturing an IR of a guitar speaker cabinet, my measurement data goes to my other test tools in my workshop - maybe this is a nice tool for the future - who knows.....but first I have to build it.... :)

Hopefully my english is not the much over your head - I'm just a normal guy with normal skills....
 

Robboman

Fractal Fanatic
So when you were testing this were you going FRFR with the Cab simulations active?
"I went through most of the presets using my studio monitors and various guitars, tweaking here and there on the fly. Lots of incredible sounds. Many of the new 'mix' IRs sound amazing, they have a very studio polished, professional feel. The 59 Bassman mix is dead on. Also dig the AC30 blues, the Dumbles, the Marshall basket weave cabs (esp the TV). I had not yet used the James Santiago cabs on 9.x. Those are stunning!"

And when you were using the Matrix amp into the Marshall 1960a you had the Cab Simulations bypassed? And then adjusted the LF Resonance response? Just listen to what sounds good?
"Matrix GT1000FX into my Marshall 1960a loaded with 2 G12-65s and 2 v30s. I made a preset with just drv, amp, rev and dly blocks. Cranked up to a healthy volume and I just had a blast testing out one amazing amp after another with my cab."

thanks
Yes, exactly.
 
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