From (good) bedroom tone to (weak) live sound...

Google Fletcher-Munson.

Yes exactly, Fletcher Munson is the explanation to that question.
So, as others have said, the trick is to boost the mids, or lower the high and low frequencies , when translating a preset to gig from bedroom.
Now it seems to me this would have to be done at the sound check because ,the quality of the sound you get will differ from venue to venue, so it needs to be tweaked at gig level at THAT particular venue.
Now, I have never had the time or opportunity to do it properly at venues I have played before, hence usually ending up being disappointed with the live sound.
How do you more experienced performers manage to have the time at a venue prior to your gig to tweak your presets at gig level?
Note: I don't have the luxury of a dedicated sound guy who can help with all this
 
Google Fletcher-Munson.

fletch.jpg

munson.jpg
 
2 sets of presets. One for Bedroom, one for live/band.

There is really NO way to build a preset unless you turn it up.

Period.

this is exactly what I do too....

Kingfloyd: this is how I get my live sound:

- copy all of your presets so that they appear in the next bank on your floor controller so that for example
--- preset 0 studio is copied to preset 10, 1 to 11, 2 to 12 etc..

- hire a rehearsal room just for you for a good couple of hours and take
--- your full live rig
--- if you can something like an iPod with your band's live set to play along to
and take a stereo mini jack to 2x mono 1/4" jack cable so you can connect to the PA

- start with your first live patch with your backline cranked to gig volume and you may find:
-- you need to dry up the ambient fx a little
-- you need a little less bass / top / drive
-- you may need to gate a little differently [only do this if you really need to cos it's tone effecting]
--- the differential levels between rhythm and soloing tones may need to be a little bigger
EDIT: alternatively you may find that everything is ok and you only need to make a few corrective changes to the global EQ

Note: your cab has two sounds:
1 - when you are on stage with it behind you, and if you are close to it you may think it lacks top
2 - the folk in the crowd will hear much much more top end focus...

so grab a long cable and check your live tone facing the cab from about 15' to 20' away to make sure your top end don't make ears bleed...
then stand where you normally would with respect to your cab and try to get used to the tone as you'd experience it on stage..

finally... turn on the iPod, turn it up through the PA and play your 'practice gig' [making lil' tweaks along the way]

and be mindful that if you have linked-global blocks that you don't go and fix something in one preset and break it in another...
the beauty of globals though it that hopefully your fix in one preset is a fix for all... you just need to make certain...
 
Axe Fx reacts like a real amp

Always remember that the voice of your guitar is the mids on the amp. You can't have the same settings when you play alone in a room and when you play live with other instruments.
Also making a preset with 5 inch monitors will sound different with a full range loudspeaker.

Watch this video
Guitar Lesson - EQ Settings On Your Amp - YouTube

I have my axe fx connected on a small yamaha mixing desk and from the desk i send the monitor line to my krk 5s monitors and the stereo line to msr 250 loudspeakers
that way I can compare the sound in both speakers.
 
Does it make sense to alter the EQ of home FRFR setups so that they have less mids? That way, your live patches with more mids will sound "right" at home?
 
I tend to like a bit a Midrange in my Guitar Sound so my View may be slanted as it seems others think it is MidRange that makes the Difference, and they may be right...
My Setup was Live: AxeFX2 Out1 Straight to PA, Out2 to (2) QSC K8 FRFR - I was using Munitio Earbuds.
That Said, I was having trouble writing Patches at Home and having them Translate to Live...
So I researched in these forums and settled on the Audio-Technica ATHM50S Headphones and a Set of KRK RP5G2 Rokit G2 5In Powered Studio Monitors.
Now I usually create with the Headphones so I don't drive the Family Crazy. Then I check with the KRKs Cranked up to check Tone and Volume Balance between Patches.
Since my change in my Home Setup, I have had most of my Patches translate to Live with little or no Tweaking Necessary.
 
It just needs more SSSSSSIZZLE to sound good live. Add a bit of FIZZ and your fans will be very happy;)
 
this is exactly what I do too....

Kingfloyd: this is how I get my live sound:

- copy all of your presets so that they appear in the next bank on your floor controller so that for example
--- preset 0 studio is copied to preset 10, 1 to 11, 2 to 12 etc..

- hire a rehearsal room just for you for a good couple of hours and take
--- your full live rig
--- if you can something like an iPod with your band's live set to play along to
and take a stereo mini jack to 2x mono 1/4" jack cable so you can connect to the PA

- start with your first live patch with your backline cranked to gig volume and you may find:
-- you need to dry up the ambient fx a little
-- you need a little less bass / top / drive
-- you may need to gate a little differently [only do this if you really need to cos it's tone effecting]
--- the differential levels between rhythm and soloing tones may need to be a little bigger
EDIT: alternatively you may find that everything is ok and you only need to make a few corrective changes to the global EQ

Note: your cab has two sounds:
1 - when you are on stage with it behind you, and if you are close to it you may think it lacks top
2 - the folk in the crowd will hear much much more top end focus...

so grab a long cable and check your live tone facing the cab from about 15' to 20' away to make sure your top end don't make ears bleed...
then stand where you normally would with respect to your cab and try to get used to the tone as you'd experience it on stage..

finally... turn on the iPod, turn it up through the PA and play your 'practice gig' [making lil' tweaks along the way]

and be mindful that if you have linked-global blocks that you don't go and fix something in one preset and break it in another...
the beauty of globals though it that hopefully your fix in one preset is a fix for all... you just need to make certain...

+1

Tweaking in context will get you there. You can use the looper for this too, and keep walking out front after your tweak to get it there.

Depending on the musical genre, you can expect everything to get from 3db - 6db louder when the show starts vs. the sound check. You see this alot on one-off television performances where they pull their IEM's right away because the sound checked mix went to shite when everyone is pumped and the cameras are rolling.

Richard
 
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I just dial everything in at gig volume and then turn it down to bedroom volume when playing at home. Not sure there is any other way to do this.
I see know reason to have both bedroom and gig presets. Unless you're using them for recording or something.
 
I just dial everything in at gig volume and then turn it down to bedroom volume when playing at home. Not sure there is any other way to do this.
I see know reason to have both bedroom and gig presets. Unless you're using them for recording or something.

my live presets sound thin and lifeless at practice volumes which is why I run two sets of presets...
one set work loud, and the other set sound / feel loud at low volumes..
that way I have a reasonably consistent playing experience irrespective of when I'm doing..
 
I have played a lot of different gigs in my lifetime. Never once have I had the luxury of dialing it in the context of the band through the band's PA which would be the optimal solution that's because I am always playing with different people with little or no rehearsal(not my choice) or a 20 piece orchestra. You just have to come armed for bear. By that I mean, you understand what every switch on your rig does including all the global settings, and you learn the lingo of complaint because often that's often how you'll get constructive criticism in nontechnical jargon. Dial all your programs in at home at volume and balance all your patches leaving room for a solo boost. Record everything you do when feasible and review those recordings. Be ready to take action for all the problems you can foresee. The biggest thing is listen and watch realizing that most problems can't be solved by just turning up. The guitar is a mid ranged instrument and that's where it fits in the mix. Your slot is just going to be a different size in every situation. That's why I usually have a blocking PEQ at the end of every patch to knock off the extreme highs and lows which I can also use for minor adjustments.
 
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Very interesting!

Now i know why my first evening with the Axe results in a terrible muddy way. The bass player shouts the whole time: "I can't hear me..."

So, i have a spontaneous wish:

- A simple little "Loundess" Button?
- Or, this?
Loudness.jpg

With the left "SPL dB"-Knob all the other knobs will adjusted automatically. And the parameter presenting the scaleable min./max. values?
Or something else, i am not a "freak". I post this only for discussion...or not. :)

Frank
 
You mean a block at the end of the chain that can automatically adjust frequencies for fletcher-munson depending on where you set the spl parm? That would be VERY cool. If perceived loudness can be converted into a formula to adjust frequencies maybe its possible. And assignable to X or Y on the front of the axe for instant adjustments? Awesome. Or the block is tied into the level set on the Out1 or Out2 knob?
 
I had this same problem too. The Axe FX for band use was way too much hassle and tweaking, so I went back to tube amplifiers and leave the Axe FX II for recording/practicing. I'm incredibly disappointed that the Axe FX II isn't working out for me at practices.
 
Be patient, as others have said, you need to tweak at the volume you will be playing at, preferable at practice, or if not feasable, then with an MP3 playing to see how it sounds in the mix. I've now got 2 sets of identical patches, a low volume set and a high volume set.
 
Yes wknight2,

you named it :)
In the end of a chain as an effect-block you are able to simply select between X and Y settings.
I don't know if the Fletcher-Mundson curve correction can be put in a formula, but with the parameters in my picture, it can corrects the most important points.
Again, I am a noob. :) But i like the idea very much.

But put this to Output 1 or 2 will not work, while the output knob have no control of how loud the master faders on the PA are.

@Spaceboy:
I will try next time (when playing loud) to reduce with help from PEQ around the 120Hz with Q=0.7 and around 10-11kHz with a Q=2.0.
I will see if it helps...

Frank
 
Allowing for the Fletcher Munson Curve:

Build Patch without any EQ that sound good at low volume:
When You Go Loud Apply the EQ as Follows:
1 = 150 HZ - 12.8db
2 = 3.95 kHz + 3.6db
3 = 8.0 kHz - 7.7db
4 = 9.3 kHz - 12.6db

The Other Way is to Build the Patches that sound good at low volume with EQ ON:

Build Patch with this EQ on:
1 = 150 hz + 12.8db
2 = 3.95 kHz - 3.6db
3 = 8.0 kHz + 7.7db
4 = 9.3 kHz + 12.6db

Then when you play Loud Just Turn The EQ OFF!!! and you're set

Hope this helps. This was a tip given to me a long time ago.
I am pretty sure this should work even with Axe-FX
Please let me know if this helps. I really helped me in my Line6 Days.
Cheers,
Phantom.
 
like this,

will try this next time. Have you a idea for the Q-settings?
0.707 ? this will cut out very much.

Frank
 
IMO…

When the basic EQ in a patch is really right, there is no need to have secondary EQ allowances for FM curves – it will tolerate volume changes all by itself. An example is how/why the guitar (or whatever) in many commercial recordings sounds just fine whether you’re just listening to your TV at 60db or blasting out with a high-power playback system at 120db. Achieving this wide-range ability is the goal and it only comes from learning and hard work. It’s also what separates the men from the boys. It doesn’t matter whether you’re a FOH guy, a studio mix guy, a guitar player or whatever. The pro’s do it everyday.

To start, get the patch working at low volume. All the problems like mud from too much gain - those things are heard easily there. Being conscious of the curves, sculpt the frequency spectrum allowing for what is to come (or not) with increased volume. Approach it in a manner such that if a known frequency region will be boosted with increased volume; you should pre-bias that region to the thin side at lesser volume, etc. You’re done when you’ve properly compensated for volume changes across the frequency spectrum. Try listening to your favorite tracks at the volume extremes for some insight. As volume is increased listen close to what is going on in different frequency regions. Determine what causes your guitar to go south while your favorite track is getting on just fine.

When you get this right all kinds of problems disappear too. The needed cut is there at any volume and you blend in right. As your EQ skills improve, so will the volume range the patch can tolerate. There is no substitute learning this. It is most certainly patch specific, so save the global EQ for the venue.

I find that having a graphic EQ before the amp along with another at the end of the chain helps to do this. Also, running the effects in parallel, set up in the same way helps too. Use PEQ to fix the narrow issues that remain.

Another way to approach this is to use the numbers that fantomofalfred (welcome to the forum btw) provided above. Set a patch up at a mid-level volume and see if the patch will tolerate EQ changes by adding or subtracting half of the indicated boost/cut levels. If it doesn’t work well find a new ‘center’ value to work from until it does. Then check the extremes and rub on it some more. The more you work at it the wider your tolerance window is going to be.

Edit: This only applies to quality FRFR
 
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