From FRFR to amp/cab

greiswig

greiswig

Power User
So to alleviate the frustration of Waiting for 3.0 (and trying to figure out how to make 3.0 pronounced like Godot), I thought I'd ask for some pearls of wisdom from the group here.

My go-to patch is based on the Bludodrive preset, using Ownhammer IRs that combine a G12-65 and a SRO. I sat in on a blues jam recently that had me drag out my little Glaswerks Zingaro combo, since plugging into the PA would actually have been more trouble than just setting up a little amp.

Hey, says I, that speaker and power amp should act a lot like the Bludo output section. Wonder what my main preset sounds like through the cab?

So I plugged output 2 into the FX loop return of the amp, which is post MV. Only control that affects anything at that point is the presence, obviously. Then I shut down power amp modeling and cabinet modeling in the AFX.

It really didn't sound anything like what I'm used to, and really didn't sound good. I would have to spend a lot of time tweaking to get it to sound good. So I'm trying to figure out to what extent that's expected? I mean, if I were going into a totally different power amp that wasn't designed for clean headroom, and into a totally different speaker type...I could see it not translating well then. But this should be well within the ballpark for that preset.

Those of you who have made the jump either way, have you had to really redo the tone controls a lot to get usable sound?
 
I use exactly the same amp settings with FR and with (neutral) amp+cab.
 
I use the same preset for both FRFR and Amp/CAB.

I use the FX Loop block BEFORE the cab block, send signal from output 2 into a Matrix GT800fx power amp into a 2x12 Port City Cab. I don't change any settings or have anything going into FOH/FRFR different from the cab except no Cab sims get sent into that signal.
 
Okay. That means either the power amp or the effects loop in this guy is really coloring things. Hmmm...
 
I have a little bit of eq on output 2. Just a tiny bass and treble bump. Otherwise, same settings on both.
 
I don't get it. You used a different power amp and essentially a different cab. Wouldn't you expect it to sound different?

Also, you'd have to play your Zingaro pretty loud to drive its power amp as hard as you're probably driving the model's power amp. That can really change the tone and feel.
 
What I am saying is that I'm using the power section from a Dumble clone and a G12-65 speaker, which should be pretty much spot on for this preset, which is a Bludo Dumble clone into an IR that includes mostly G12-65 Ownhammer in the recipe.

And yes, since I am using an external tube power amp and an external cab, I have disabled power amp modeling and cabinet modeling.

But I'm saying that the sound isn't even in the ballpark. Thin, no oomph...just like at least one other thread here. And yet some of you say you need to tweak absolutely nothing, so I'm really puzzled.
 
Without clips to go on, we're sort of shooting in the dark here. So I'll take my best shots, and hope the target is in the same room. :)

Most well-dialed-in presets will be pushing the power amp into distortion, at least a little bit, to get a fat and chewy sound. When you drive a real power amp into distortion, you're very near the maximum volume that the amp can produce. Not necessarily near ten on the dial, but nearly as loud as the power amp can get (most amps' volume won't increase much in the last half of the knob's rotation). Are you pusing your power amp up near its maximum volume?


It would help if could give a little detail about what "thin, no oomph" means. Too much treble? Not enough bass? or something else?
 
Rex said:
Without clips to go on, we're sort of shooting in the dark here. So I'll take my best shots, and hope the target is in the same room. :)

Most well-dialed-in presets will be pushing the power amp into distortion, at least a little bit, to get a fat and chewy sound. When you drive a real power amp into distortion, you're very near the maximum volume that the amp can produce. Not necessarily near ten on the dial, but nearly as loud as the power amp can get (most amps' volume won't increase much in the last half of the knob's rotation). Are you pusing your power amp up near its maximum volume?


It would help if could give a little detail about what "thin, no oomph" means. Too much treble? Not enough bass? or something else?
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Dumble power amps are not designed to be pushed into distortion. Sure, they can go there, but it is designed to be cleanish like a Twin. I don't know which power amp you're talking about pushing up near maximum...virtual or real. MV on the Fractal is at 5.00. MV on my Glaswerks is bypassed.

I can't take clips because my DAW is dead. But basically, no oomph means it is lacking in bass and low mids. It also lacks some of the high end. Perhaps all of that is attributable to proximity effect of the virtual microphone, but if that were so I wouldn't expect people to be able to just switch back and forth between FRFR and a cab without a lot of adjustment.
 
yek said:
I use exactly the same amp settings with FR and with (neutral) amp+cab.
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Yeah but don't you use your own IRs? I know that when I use my own IRs my settings are identical from recording when I switch to amp/cab, with the exception of speaker drive. But then I'm not running a tube power amp anymore.

I would not expect, however, to sound the same if I were playing through any tube power amp. A lesson I learned with the Mesa 290. I would expect much less if I were using a model of a different preamp into the power section of a different amp. Two of the same amps won't sound identical next to each other.

Add into that somebody else's IR and you've got a recipe for not sounding close.
 
Speculum Speculorum said:
Yeah but don't you use your own IRs? I know that when I use my own IRs my settings are identical from recording when I switch to amp/cab, with the exception of speaker drive. But then I'm not running a tube power amp anymore.

I would not expect, however, to sound the same if I were playing through any tube power amp. A lesson I learned with the Mesa 290. I would expect much less if I were using a model of a different preamp into the power section of a different amp. Two of the same amps won't sound identical next to each other.

Add into that somebody else's IR and you've got a recipe for not sounding close.
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If this is so, this is exactly the kind of information I was looking for. And the other threads I read about this same subject may be looking for the same thing.

In my case, it may be due more to the IR, although this preset sounds good through a lot of different IRs, and none of them sound like the real cab.

As for my power amp, I'm sure it is colored somewhat, but again, this kind of amp gets its tone from an overdriven preamp into a clean power amp. Headroom to spare is the rule of thumb.
 
Speculum Speculorum said:
Yeah but don't you use your own IRs? I know that when I use my own IRs my settings are identical from recording when I switch to amp/cab, with the exception of speaker drive. But then I'm not running a tube power amp anymore.

I would not expect, however, to sound the same if I were playing through any tube power amp. A lesson I learned with the Mesa 290. I would expect much less if I were using a model of a different preamp into the power section of a different amp. Two of the same amps won't sound identical next to each other.

Add into that somebody else's IR and you've got a recipe for not sounding close.
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Ah, I'm not that picky. :)

Tried to make my own IRs but I didn't like the results.
 
greiswig said:
Dumble power amps are not designed to be pushed into distortion. Sure, they can go there, but it is designed to be cleanish like a Twin.
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Sure they are. Look at how the pros gig with Dumbles. They've got the MV up around 5 or 6. That's enough to overdrive the power amp. Even a dead-clean Twin sounds best when you've turned up the volume to the edge of PA overdrive. You don't hear it as distortion; you hear it as "fat."



greiswig said:
I don't know which power amp you're talking about pushing up near maximum...virtual or real. MV on the Fractal is at 5.00. MV on my Glaswerks is bypassed.
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Again, I'm not talking about maxing out the knob, I'm talking about driving the PA into distortion. When you're at that point, the amp wont get much louder, no matter how high you turn the MV. It'll just get flubbier.

If your MV is bypassed on your Glaswerks, you have to turn up your Axe's output level to drive the PA, and that's going to make your PA play nearly as loud as it can go. That's one of the advantages of the Axe: you can hit the PA hard without ear splitting volume.


Form your tonal description, you've got more mids, and you're lacking everything else. That sounds like Fletcher-Munson at low volume. Crank that muvvah up!
 
F-M curve or lack of volume aren't the issue, trust me. I'm using the output knob as my MV, and crank it to gig levels; 90+db C-weighted, which without much bass is really loud. Could be the effects loop or something, but I'm still puzzled by how different it really is.

And no, the power amp isn't distorting on this amp even with MV up to 5-6. Switch on the clean channel, and it gets blistering loud before any noticeable overdrive or change in tone. I've built a few of these amps and measured distortion on them while running signal at high volume. Measurable, yes, but not really audible. Compression artifacts end up being more due to the speaker unless you're using one of the 4x12 EVM-12L cabs. Which are brutal in every sense, but that's a different story.

Mind you, it does sound like distortion is missing when played through the tube amp/speaker combo. But I am trusting FAS when they say they have accurately modeled both preamp and power amp sections and would be, in this case, relying pretty much solely on the preamp for the distortion.
 
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