Friedman BE-OD Pedal In FX Loop

[Brian Greco]

Have you tried using the Boost option on the Amp block? You can now select from various boost types.

I'd also suggest just using the TS-808 model (which, by the way is a model of the TS-9, not a TS-808!) and then adjusting the amount of Low in the EQ section (since the Low Cut is already very high).

Also, try using the Low Cut in the Amp block and then add any "missing" bottom end with the Output EQ in the Amp block (post power amp).

Also, try using the Input EQ in the Amp block.

All the technique you are trying to use is doing is 2 things: a) slamming the front end of the amp (Drive block level) and b) applying pre-EQ based on the "tone" of the drive pedal.

There are many different approaches to do the same thing on the Axe Fx III.

I really don't think you need an external drive to accomplish it.

Hey!
Thanks for the great suggestions. Ironically, some of my best tones have come from what you suggested. The only reason I was able to even imply these techniques is because of the amount of time I’ve been spending on the ask affects every day. Reading your suggestions, at least I know that I’m on the right track. You might be right about the external drive. All of you have pretty much come into an agreement about that, so me being the newer guy on the block, maybe it won’t make much of a difference at all.

As I’ve told everybody else, if you have any more suggestions my ears are open.

Thanks Unix-Guy!

 

[Brian Greco]

Probably explains why it sounds "different"!

Even though you were serious about that, I definitely had to laugh because it’s the truth.

 

[Brian Greco]

Oops, I just noticed that lqdsnddist pretty much said the same thing.

You were supposed to get the longest reply. Technically, you did, but being that I’m using my iPhone and my finger is kind of hitting everything, I screwed up your message for the second time I might add. I found one section in my reply to someone else, and it just got too crazy. LOL Anyway, you gave me some great advice and I thank you for looking up those schematics for me. That was very nice of you to do.

You know, in a lot of tutorials, they suggest staying away from the deeper editing sections, but as soon as I learned how to make a decent tone, that’s the first thing I did. There are a lot of people who are proficient at the Axe Fx and suggest staying away from the “forbidden sections.“ My definition of a forbidden section is anything beyond the primary amp and GEQ sections. This makes sense if you’re trying to teach someone who JUST starting out, but some of those proficient people just don’t feel the need to go that deep. I do because it is really important for me to get the most out of this unit. That is the way that I am going to become more versatile. To each his own.

Thanks so much StickMan!

 

[Brian Greco]

That's not what I was saying at all. What I was saying was that I didn't think there would be anything in the pedal that you couldn't do with your AFX, with regards to tightening the bottom end.

This "tightening" thing seems to refer to getting muddiness in the bass spectrum because of distortion. As I understand it, this is because the harmonics generated through the distortion process end up crowding the lower middle frequency range and the result sounds muddy or "flubby". The general approach to this in most cases is to filter out much of the bass prior to applying the distortion, and the re-balancing the bass level at the output. This is absolutely the approach taken in the BE-OD pedal, and this is 100% reproducible in the AFX using a number of different block types.

If the pedal works for you, that's great. But there are so many opportunities to EQ a signal in the AFX that feeling like you have to go to an external pedal to get the EQ right seems a bit off to me.

That's not what I was saying at all. What I was saying was that I didn't think there would be anything in the pedal that you couldn't do with your AFX, with regards to tightening the bottom end.

This "tightening" thing seems to refer to getting muddiness in the bass spectrum because of distortion. As I understand it, this is because the harmonics generated through the distortion process end up crowding the lower middle frequency range and the result sounds muddy or "flubby". The general approach to this in most cases is to filter out much of the bass prior to applying the distortion, and the re-balancing the bass level at the output. This is absolutely the approach taken in the BE-OD pedal, and this is 100% reproducible in the AFX using a number of different block types.

If the pedal works for you, that's great. But there are so many opportunities to EQ a signal in the AFX that feeling like you have to go to an external pedal to get the EQ right seems a bit off to me.

Hi again,

I really think that I understand what you’re saying, it’s just that my reply did not translate well.

You are more seasoned at this than I am, and so maybe a pedal isn’t something to invest in. Also, please know that I certainly DO understand what you were saying about reducing flubbiness in the the Axe FX. I think where my approach is different is that I try to get a very even, balanced tone with just above a touch of drive/distortion. Then when I feel everything is balanced and I have enough room, I add in an a drive block. I do have my favorite ones in there that I tend to use more frequently than others.

Yes, I do understand exactly what you are saying in regard to the approach of reducing the bass as much as needed before the addition of drive/distortion, and then rebalancing the bass. Like I said, It’s just a different approach from what I was doing, but I appreciate the knowledge. I also recall in other posts, maybe not specifically yours, saying that I am open to trying everything. Why? Because I want to become proficient about achieving certain tones in multiple ways instead of going through just one motion.

I don’t recall ever saying that I “need” a pedal, but it was for experimentation. I know from my use of the Axe FX that there are plenty of EQ opportunities and I continue to utilize and discover more whether it’s through the forum, reading manuals, YouTube and even by happenstance. Again, there’s a reason why I spend so much time developing my own amplifiers, because I want to achieve the best tone possible for what I’m seeking... and for others as well. If I felt I needed a pedal, I wouldn’t spend much time at all doing what I’m doing on the AXE FX. You don’t know how excited I am to start sharing my tones with the community. I’m not sure that you would like them because they are more on the saturated side, but the point is that I think you’ve got me a little bit wrong here.

Thanks

 

[Brian Greco]

Have you tried using the Boost option on the Amp block? You can now select from various boost types.

I'd also suggest just using the TS-808 model (which, by the way is a model of the TS-9, not a TS-808!) and then adjusting the amount of Low in the EQ section (since the Low Cut is already very high).

Also, try using the Low Cut in the Amp block and then add any "missing" bottom end with the Output EQ in the Amp block (post power amp).

Also, try using the Input EQ in the Amp block.

All the technique you are trying to use is doing is 2 things: a) slamming the front end of the amp (Drive block level) and b) applying pre-EQ based on the "tone" of the drive pedal.

There are many different approaches to do the same thing on the Axe Fx III.

I really don't think you need an external drive to accomplish it.

Thank you very much. Your suggestions are well noted. I thought I had responded to this particular reply, but maybe I didn’t. Thank you very much for your help and any more tips are welcome.

 

[Brian Greco]

What are you referring to here? There is no BE-OD model in the Drive block as far as I am aware.

I confused it with the BB Pre. Brain fart.

 

[lqdsnddist]

After having spend probably $5000+ on pedals over the years the things I’ve come to realize are...

1] there is no magic in any of them, it’s usually a slight change of a resistor etc, or adding a knob where a resistor used to be etc. these things are all simple circuits that aren’t that hard to replicate.

2] 99% of designs are based on something else. Maybe a slight change of a resistor, and the rest is eye candy with a cool name and stylish housing

3] pedals are like crack, hard to kick. I to this day still fall for some, cool knobs and paint job, great demo by Mike Herman’s and yep, out comes my credit card, only then to realize the fancy new pedal is a clone of a pedal I owned and sold 2 years ago lol

I could of had a free Axe with what I’ve lost in fees and shipping on pedals over the years. They still are fun and addictive though.... something about getting a product in the mail, hooking it up, the way it looks etc.

I know I can match nearly anything with a little programming, but just isn’t as fun to download a patch as it is to get a real pedal.

 

[∞Fractals]

Hey lqdsnddist,

Hmm... interesting point. You’re right, I could do the stock BE-OD in front of another amp, but it does sound different from the actual pedal. Also, if I can do what I want as far as tightening everything up, it’s worth it to me. The good thing about dealing with Sweetwater is that if I try it out for a day, I can just return it the very next day.

I’m actually going to take your suggestion in a couple of minutes. I saw one of Yek’s posts about doing the same thing, and so I imitated it, but didn’t get fantastic results. It’s something for me to continue to tinker around with though. I’m always open to suggestions because it’s just going to make the whole Axe FX thing more versatile for me.

Thank you so much for your insight.

On the BE amp model (Before the true amp block), Assure that you turn P. A. off (via Sag control). This effectively recreates the pedal; pre-amp sound signature without power amp modeling on.

 

[Brian Greco]

That is definitely a lot of money spent on pedals, and yes, a lot of times one pedal can just sound an inch away from another.

Although, I haven’t spent that much on pedals, I spent money on gear that I just ended up selling over the years, and like you, had I saved up, I could’ve had an AFX along time ago.

I agree that there is definitely something addictive about buying gear and buying pedals. I know that when using them on a tube amp, I want to see how many different kinds of tones I can get beyond the basics of the amp itself, so I bought things over the years, someone should actually did make a difference, but others not.

However, not all was lost. I did find some good additive gear.

In regard to tone matching. I just really started the process. I like it because it’s very quick and easy, but I can’t seem to really replicate a tone to the fullest extent, unless it’s my tone that I created with the AFX. I really spend a long time trying to get an amp preset to sound as close to the source, tweaking the amp itself and swapping different and impulse responses. My latest endeavor was
the Engl Savage 120 tone on the Exodus album “Exhibit B: The Human condition.“ I literally spent about four days trying to craft an amp, and when I was finally satisfied thinking that I had come pretty close, I performed the tone match. There were definitely similarities, but I couldn’t pull it off.

Do you have any other advice as far as getting an amp to sound as close as you can to the source before telling matching, and some postpone matching tweaking?

 

[Brian Greco]

On the BE amp model (Before the true amp block), Assure that you turn P. A. off (via Sag control). This effectively recreates the pedal; pre-amp sound signature without power amp modeling on.

I definitely will. That seems to be the universal advice with that overdrive.

 

[∞Fractals]

I definitely will. That seems to be the universal advice with that overdrive.

FYI - you can do this with all amp models to get “signature toanz” because most of the character comes from the preamp iirc.

 

[unix-guy]

I definitely will. That seems to be the universal advice with that overdrive.

Keep in mind that we are not talking about a Drive block, but rather using an Amp block AS an overdrive by "removing" the power amp from that Amp block.

It's "universal" because that is the method for doing it with ANY amp block...

The idea is that you have 1 Amp block with the PA off (acting as a Drive block) feeding into a 2nd "normal" Amp block.

 

[Brian Greco]

Okay very cool , guys. I believe this is similar or the same as Yek mentioned in one of his posts. When I get home I’m actually going to take a piece of paper and bullet the techniques that all of you suggested in this thread. Even though I am new on this forum, this probably one of the most valuable threads that I started.

Thanks to everyone who contributed. I still.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I think you need to keep on mind it’s often impossible to sound exactly like another artist, because even when you get the exact same amp, guitar, copy the knob settings etc your not going to play exactly like them, and those differences in attack, pick dynamics, etc make a pretty big difference. Again that is with the exact same gear and it can still sound different.

So sometimes if said artist played a patch it would sound just like them even if someone else playing it thinks it only sounds “close”.

I’ve tried to switch my mindset from how close I sound to an artists tone to just asking myself if it’s a good tone I’m happy with.

 

[Brian Greco]

I think you need to keep on mind it’s often impossible to sound exactly like another artist, because even when you get the exact same amp, guitar, copy the knob settings etc your not going to play exactly like them, and those differences in attack, pick dynamics, etc make a pretty big difference. Again that is with the exact same gear and it can still sound different.

So sometimes if said artist played a patch it would sound just like them even if someone else playing it thinks it only sounds “close”.

I’ve tried to switch my mindset from how close I sound to an artists tone to just asking myself if it’s a good tone I’m happy with.

Yes, absolutely. I understand and I don’t have the expectation for things to 100%, especially for the reasons you mentioned. For me though, it was a test to see how close I could get using the Tone Match. I honestly wasn’t sure what it was capable of.

What I was trying to achieve was a tall order, considering all the engineering that Andy Sneap did. In the end, I think he may have captured a 120, made a profile and imported it into a Kemper. I have to check the facts again because I forgot.

I had been using Positive Grid’s Tone Match feature for a while with so so results. Right now, I just want to find a very neutral clip of someone playing a heavy driven Engl Savage 120 tone as well as low gain tone.
With the low gain tone I can hear what’s really going on underneath the heavy drive. That amp has a very distinctive sound, especially when palm muting, So finding those clips is part of my focus, so I can capture the basic sound of the amp . Some of the amp’s details are described in the wiki page.

At this point I hope to find a basic reference clip and then once I complete the amp, tone match it. There are people who play 120’s on YouTube, but because of the compression that occurs during the audio/video recording portion and the actual compression of the video, it’s hard to find something clean.

I made several versions of the Engl 120 before Tone Matching. I’ll find something out there that will help me get a little closer. I have plenty to work on from this thread today. I hope I didn’t upset anybody with this pedal stuff- it’s hard to believe how that all began but it created a very good thread which has given me new tools.

 

[LiamBlack]

Perhaps it makes sense to connect several pedals with different settings? It may not be very convenient, but my brother plays like that and says what he likes. To be honest, I don’t understand this I always have one pedal Wampler Triple Wreck V2, if I’m not familiar with this model I found a review that tells a little about who needs it. She is completely satisfied, I spent another day setting up, but in the end, I got what I needed.