FRFR - What is the major Diff, and which are the best?

Paul Abell

Paul Abell

Member
Ok, so today marks one week that I have ha my AFXIII, and I have not had a lot of opportunity to dive into it fully; The coming few weeks should be better.

In light of that, all I have done is hook it up via my Apollo Twin, with sounds coming from my Yamaha HS8 desk monitors. It sounds pretty good, but so far, I have resisted the temptation to hook it into FX Loop of one of my amps. I pretty much know what I will have there, because my stepson has a II running through his Dual Rectifier. This is for another time and place, as I am very interested in the FRFR solution.

How is an Axe-FX running through FRFR solution (powered or using a separate amp) better than running it though a power amp into a traditional guitar cabinet. Lets say eliminate the real amps mentioned above and assume we are using the same power amp for both applications, leaving the powered FRFR options for later.

As best I know, impulse responses are and were captured with real amps running through the common guitar cabinets. I am not sure how Celestion is doing them... I am new to all this, so if I am wrong, then just let me know kindly! If that is the case, it stands to reason that the best reproduction of that tone would come from as similar a speaker and cab as possible. I understand we aren't comparing apples to apples, so tell me what I am missing.

What sets a FRFR speaker ahead of the traditional guitar cabinet: 2x12, 4x12, etc.?

If going with a FRFR speaker, powered, or non-powered, running with a separate power amp, which option is best these days?

While I understand that tone, is subjective and different to everyone, there has to be a common place that most people gravitate. I am curious why most people are on one side of the fence or the other.

Feel free to let me know what options you went with and why... What you think the best FRFR option is today. Since you all have much more experience with this application (mine is zero), I am very open to your real experiences and conclusions.

None of these are easily attainable, so any help is greatly appreciated!
 
Tons of threads, some as recent as yesterday with page after page explaining the differences

Frfr is basically a studio monitor that can get louder and that works for stage monitoring. Guitar speaker cabinet imparts it’s own affect on the tone, in other works it’s not flat

Opinions vary as to what people prefer and why
 
You can think of it in terms of what you already know. A guitar cabinet sounds like a guitar cabinet... it's built for guitar, with a speaker that reproduces the range a guitar reproduces. Bass cabinets are the same for a bass, and so on.

In the studio, you add things to an instrument signal that have frequencies outside those of the original signal, both lower and higher. It's the reason no one mixes a guitar into a track listening to a Marshall 4x12 sitting on top of the recording console. The studio monitors reproduce the audible range, not the instrument range, so that you can hear both the source track and the processing together, and that together with the accompaniment.

FRFR works like a studio monitor, so you can clearly and accurately hear everything you are adding to the source guitar signal, along with an accurate representation of the amplified guitar itself. This is the reason most people using the Axe FX also use some sort of speaker cabinet built for that purpose. You certainly can use a regular guitar cab, turn off cabinet simulations, and approximate a head to speaker cab sound, if that's what you prefer. Many here do that, and it is the sound they want. Which is (or should be) the deciding factor for anyone looking for their right sound. What do you want to hear?

It took an adjustment in listening for me, but having heard my guitar in a studio, the FRFR experience was familiar and I just listened for the studio sound on stage. Once I adjusted to it, I found I preferred it and never went back. The exact opposite is the experience of others. It's the beauty of the Axe FX. It will do both equally well, and can swap from one to the other in seconds.
 
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lqdsnddist said:
Tons of threads, some as recent as yesterday with page after page explaining the differences

Frfr is basically a studio monitor that can get louder and that works for stage monitoring. Guitar speaker cabinet imparts it’s own affect on the tone, in other works it’s not flat

Opinions vary as to what people prefer and why
Click to expand...

I understand the basics, and running anything modeled through anything the is not flat would color the sound; however, I can name a number of studio monitors that are supposed to be just that, and every one sounds different for different reasons - no two speakers sound exactly alike and different brands sound completely different.
 
Rick said:
You can think of it in terms of what you already know. A guitar cabinet sounds like a guitar cabinet... it's built for guitar, with a speaker that reproduces the range a guitar reproduces. Bass cabinets are the same for a bass, and so on.

In the studio, you add things to an instrument signal that have frequencies outside those of the original signal, both lower and higher. It's the reason no one mixes a guitar into a track listening to a Marshall 4x12 sitting on top of the recording console. The studio monitors reproduce the audible range, not the instrument range, so that you can hear both the source track and the processing together, and that together with the accompaniment.

FRFR works like a studio monitor, so you can clearly and accurately hear everything you are adding to the source guitar signal, along with an accurate representation of the amplified guitar itself. This is the reason most people using the Axe FX also use some sort of speaker cabinet built for that purpose. You certainly can use a regular guitar cab, turn off cabinet simulations, and approximate a head to speaker cab sound, if that's what you prefer. Many here do that, and it is the sound they want. Which is (or should be) the deciding factor for anyone looking for their right sound. What do you want to hear?

It took an adjustment in listening for me, but having heard my guitar in a studio, the FRFR experience was familiar and I just listened for the studio sound on stage. Once I adjusted to it, I found I preferred it and never went back. The exact opposite is the experience of others. It's the beauty of the Axe FX. It will do both equally well, and can swap from one to the other in seconds.
Click to expand...

Rick: Excellent response... Everything you said is on point with my line of thinking, and that is why I posed the question; besides effects that sit outside the guitar frequency range, I do not see the need for the extra frequency range. It is that reason, I am curious about the FRFR options besides studio monitors.

In the studio, frequencies from all sorts of instruments, vocals, effects, etc. are represented and without a FRFR speaker, one would be mixing too much of a specific frequency to make up for the missing frequencies, resulting in a final mix that sounded horrible on FR speakers.

I just wanted to make sure that I was on track with how I am thinking about this... Making sure there was nothing I was overlooking!
 
Basically nothing is really flat, they are just less colored than others. Even high end monitors are only like +\- 2dB over a given frequency range and that is a fairly significant difference still. It’s just that it’s a lot better than something like a consumer multimedia speaker which maybe has real increased lows to make video games sound “better” but at the result of accuracy.

The full range part is kind of a stretch too as it’s a question of how low is low... does it reproduce 10hz or does it roll off at 69hz etc. they are at least fuller range than the typical guitar speaker.

I kind of wish frfr as a name never took off as it creates too much confusion for people and people think a PA speaker and a studio monitor are different things even though studio monitors and many pa speakers are as frfr as what is marketed as a frfr speaker.

Heck, some guitar speakers and cabinets are eve pretty flat over a given range, and one that is useful for guitar. 99% of users seem to high and low cut their frfr output to that of say 100-6000 hz anyways, which kind of defeats the point of being able to reproduce say 50-14000hz, which then makes it seem moot to care if it can do 12,000 hz if your always going to cut at 6000 or lower because you want to make it sound more like a guitar speaker in the first place
 
lqdsnddist said:
Basically nothing is really flat, they are just less colored than others. Even high end monitors are only like +\- 2dB over a given frequency range and that is a fairly significant difference still. It’s just that it’s a lot better than something like a consumer multimedia speaker which maybe has real increased lows to make video games sound “better” but at the result of accuracy.

The full range part is kind of a stretch too as it’s a question of how low is low... does it reproduce 10hz or does it roll off at 69hz etc. they are at least fuller range than the typical guitar speaker.

I kind of wish frfr as a name never took off as it creates too much confusion for people and people think a PA speaker and a studio monitor are different things even though studio monitors and many pa speakers are as frfr as what is marketed as a frfr speaker.

Heck, some guitar speakers and cabinets are eve pretty flat over a given range, and one that is useful for guitar. 99% of users seem to high and low cut their frfr output to that of say 100-6000 hz anyways, which kind of defeats the point of being able to reproduce say 50-14000hz, which then makes it seem moot to care if it can do 12,000 hz if your always going to cut at 6000 or lower because you want to make it sound more like a guitar speaker in the first place
Click to expand...

Again, this is why I posed the question(s) that I did... I have seen too many varying responses on the forum; I quit playing for 15 years, and a lot changed during that time... I had my ulnar never moved just a little over two years ago because of nerve damage, and I am playing more and more now.

I understand that what was once looked at as the pinnacle is now moving a different direction... In the end, all of this is still done to replicate tones that are produced by, mostly, tube amps from the past... Those sounds that are being modeled were captured and mixed into the albums that we all listen to.

I would go as far to say that as much as we have advanced in technology, the guitar tones I prefer come from my era and before... I am not as fond of the current metal tones... To me, there is nothing better than an amp that is cranked...

Having said that, I am elated to have my AFXIII, and I can not wait to see what all it can do...

It is that reason that I am searching for possible speakers that are different from the traditional guitar cabinet. I will have to do more research on these FRFR options...
 
Paul Abell said:
Rick: Excellent response... Everything you said is on point with my line of thinking, and that is why I posed the question; besides effects that sit outside the guitar frequency range, I do not see the need for the extra frequency range. It is that reason, I am curious about the FRFR options besides studio monitors.

In the studio, frequencies from all sorts of instruments, vocals, effects, etc. are represented and without a FRFR speaker, one would be mixing too much of a specific frequency to make up for the missing frequencies, resulting in a final mix that sounded horrible on FR speakers.

I just wanted to make sure that I was on track with how I am thinking about this... Making sure there was nothing I was overlooking!
Click to expand...
Yes, you're on track. The difference for me is that I can now hear what is going through the mains directly. The sound man does little, if any, EQ mods to my sound now so when I hear something on stage through FRFR, I can be reasonably sure the audience hears it through the PA, which is a really just a big FRFR. With an FRFR you are, in essence, the sound man for your guitar rig. And what you hear, your audience will hear. You can mix the whole spectrum. Recording is a bit different as you wouldn't normally print all the FX while recording, or you'd at least want a few dry tracks in case the FX don't fit the other tracks and need modification/replacement/deletion in the final product. I just think you hear the finished product with FRFR, and I like it. Some don't, and that's every bit as valid.

In line with the original post, I use the RCF NX12SMA. Some here also use the 10" version and like it. I have used it since my original II, and it has seen hundreds upon hundreds of gigs and rehearsals, in all kinds of venues, indoors and out, and never let me down. It sounds great everywhere, and doesn't break. That's why I am still using it! My guess is that the Atomic CLR is probably the most popular speaker used now, with the Friedman probably next for power speakers. There are lots of others, and FRFR speakers without amps to use with your own power amp. The options are pretty diverse these days.
 
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Paul Abell said:
How is an Axe-FX running through FRFR solution (powered or using a separate amp) better than running it though a power amp into a traditional guitar cabinet. Lets say eliminate the real amps mentioned above and assume we are using the same power amp for both applications, leaving the powered FRFR options for later.

As best I know, impulse responses are and were captured with real amps running through the common guitar cabinets. I am not sure how Celestion is doing them... I am new to all this, so if I am wrong, then just let me know kindly! If that is the case, it stands to reason that the best reproduction of that tone would come from as similar a speaker and cab as possible. I understand we aren't comparing apples to apples, so tell me what I am missing.

What sets a FRFR speaker ahead of the traditional guitar cabinet: 2x12, 4x12, etc.?
Click to expand...
Most impulse responses on the market are of a close-miked guitar cab, which is not the same sound as a guitar-cab-in-the-room. If you want a guitar-cab-in-the-room experience, an actual guitar cab is the easiest way to get it. But you can't use IRs with guitar cabs, as they will impart their own color over the IR's color.

I like using IRs, so I like FRFRs.

lqdsnddist said:
The full range part is kind of a stretch too as it’s a question of how low is low... does it reproduce 10hz or does it roll off at 69hz etc. they are at least fuller range than the typical guitar speaker.
Click to expand...
Most good FRFRs produce flat output down to ~70 Hz. It's more than enough full-range for guitar use, since low E is ~80 Hz.

It's probably more than enough for bass use as well. There's a long thread on TalkBass where prominent bass cab manufacturers argue that bass cabs reproducing fundamental frequencies below 60 Hz isn't all that useful. Apparently, if you measure the output of a grand piano (much longer scale length and size than a bass), it doesn't have much content below 100 Hz. What happens with the very low notes is that our brain reproduces the absent fundamental frequency from the harmonic series that's present. We're not even able to determine the pitch of anything below 80 Hz if it's a pure sine wave, further showing that our brain/ear relies on the harmonic content. The only acoustic instrument that actually produces substantial fundamentals below 100 Hz is the pipe organ, with its massive size.

For cinema or electronic music, down to 20~30 Hz is pretty awesome though.

Heck, some guitar speakers and cabinets are eve pretty flat over a given range, and one that is useful for guitar. 99% of users seem to high and low cut their frfr output to that of say 100-6000 hz anyways, which kind of defeats the point of being able to reproduce say 50-14000hz, which then makes it seem moot to care if it can do 12,000 hz if your always going to cut at 6000 or lower because you want to make it sound more like a guitar speaker in the first place
Click to expand...
Above 2 kHz is very beamy for guitar cabs, or any speaker cab with a single 12" driver. "Flatness" isn't a useful comparison if you don't evaluate directivity at the same time. What's flat when you're on-axis can change dramatically at 20 degrees off axis, and guitar speakers do exactly this and change response dramatically off-axis. Good FRFRs do not.
 
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Here’s the cliff notes on the most popular higher end solutions

CLR’s - most flat , some people think they sound a bit too hifi but many people prefer them over everything else

Friedman’s ASM and ASC - sound most guitar cab like but probly because some freqs are hyped. The ASM is heavy and awkward to carry, the ASC looks like a traditional 2x12 cab which is cool. I have the ASM and they sound great to me

Xitones - great sound and very compact and light. If I was buying something to gig with this would be it for me
 
Rick said:
Yes, you're on track. The difference for me is that I can now hear what is going through the mains directly. The sound man does little, if any, EQ mods to my sound now so when I hear something on stage through FRFR, I can be reasonably sure the audience hears it through the PA, which is a really just a big FRFR. With an FRFR you are, in essence, the sound man for your guitar rig. And what you hear, your audience will hear. You can mix the whole spectrum. Recording is a bit different as you wouldn't normally print all the FX while recording, or you'd at least want a few dry tracks in case the FX don't fit the other tracks and need modification/replacement/deletion in the final product. I just think you hear the finished product with FRFR, and I like it. Some don't, and that's every bit as valid.

In line with the original post, I use the RCF NX12SMA. Some here also use the 10" version and like it. I have used it since my original II, and it has seen hundreds upon hundreds of gigs and rehearsals, in all kinds of venues, indoors and out, and never let me down. It sounds great everywhere, and doesn't break. That's why I am still using it! My guess is that the Atomic CLR is probably the most popular speaker used now, with the Friedman probably next for power speakers. There are lots of others, and FRFR speakers without amps to use with your own power amp. The options are pretty diverse these days.
Click to expand...

Rick, thank you for your well thought out responses... Makes sense on all you said about the FRFR! I will check into the Atomic CLR option. I have already looked at the Friedman site, as well as the Mission site.
 
Paul Abell said:
Rick, thank you for your well thought out responses... Makes sense on all you said about the FRFR! I will check into the Atomic CLR option. I have already looked at the Friedman site, as well as the Mission site.
Click to expand...

Definitely do NOT overlook Xitone.
 
yeky83 said:
Most impulse responses on the market are of a close-miked guitar cab, which is not the same sound as a guitar-cab-in-the-room. If you want a guitar-cab-in-the-room experience, an actual guitar cab is the easiest way to get it. But you can't use IRs with guitar cabs, as they will impart their own color over the IR's color.

I like using IRs, so I like FRFRs.


Most good FRFRs produce flat output down to ~70 Hz. It's more than enough full-range for guitar use, since low E is ~80 Hz.

It's probably more than enough for bass use as well. There's a long thread on TalkBass where prominent bass cab manufacturers argue that fundamental frequencies below 60 Hz isn't all that useful. Apparently, if you measure the output of a grand piano (much longer scale length and size than a bass), it doesn't have much content below 100 Hz. What happens with the very low notes is that our brain reproduces the absent fundamental frequency from the harmonic series that's present. We're not even able to determine the pitch of anything below 80 Hz if it's a pure sine wave, further showing that our brain/ear relies on the harmonic content. The only acoustic instrument that actually produces substantial fundamentals below 100 Hz is the pipe organ, with its massive size.

For cinema or electronic music, down to 20~30 Hz is pretty awesome though.


Above 2 kHz is very beamy for guitar speakers. "Flatness" isn't a useful comparison if you don't evaluate directivity at the same time. What's flat when you're on-axis can change dramatically at 20 degrees off axis, and guitar speakers do exactly this.
Click to expand...


Those are great points... I had knew an IR would be colored by the guitar cabinet, hence everyone migrating towards the FRFR options; there is no doubt that I do not understand the physics involved in all of this, and that is why I am asking all these questions!

Thank you for taking time to share this info...
 
To add my opinion here, I think the big advantage of using (quality) FRFR is two-fold:

  1. chasing recorded tones will be easier, because what you're hearing on a recording is NOT a guitar cab in a room.
  2. You get to hear on stage essentially what the audience is hearing (or vice versa) AND there is much better dispersion of that sound
 
I have an axefx ll. When I got it last week I plugged it into a Alto powered 12" pa speaker. Sounded pretty good. A friend loaned me his CLR and I've been using that for a few days. The difference is black and white. The CLR sounds like a guitar cab. The Alto sounds like a pa speaker. I set the hi/lo filters in the cab setting to 80/ 8000 hz and the CLR sounds just like a guitar cabinet to my ears.
 
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