FRFR to tweak for FOH use?

powerslave88

Inspired
Hi guys,

Been doing a lot of reading up on here about how FRFRs work and why people use them etc, but just wanted to pose a question after a recent live scenario I had.

My rig is as follows - Axe Fx 2 -> Matrix GT800fx -> Marshall 2x12

Now, I am absolutely loving this rig to bits. I've always loved the sound of my Marshall cab. All my patches in the Axe FX when they get sent directly to FOH through output 1 have a Marshall 4x12 cab as the cab sim, just so that I sorta know that FOH sounds similar to my onstage sound.

I've done 4 gigs with this set up now, Output 1 going to FOH and my IEMs and Output 2 going to my cab. The first 3 were excellent - I'm really having some great results! However, the last gig, my direct sound to FOH was SO muffled and wooly it was unreal. REALLY terrible. Luckily, the engineer is a wizard, EQd the stuffing out of it and got it sounding half way decent again. But I was shocked.

My cab sims have a low cut around 80hz, and a high cut around 7000hz. My amp settings have very little (if any) treble - and sound fine through my cab, IEMs AND the PA for the first 3 gigs. Not sure if any of you have very little treble in your amp settings aswell? I had my treble on 0 when I used my Cornford live, and got amazing tones, so I guess maybe thats just my personal preference - but my tones have never been wooly or muffled. Always plenty of bite.

Anyway, I'm wondering if it was something to do with the PA at the venue? Has anyone here ever had a drastic difference from venue to venue with their direct sound?

I was also wondering that if I was to say purchase an FRFR speaker (like the Matrix 212), would putting my axe through that give me a good representation of whats coming out of a PA, or is it still going to vary quite a bit?

As I say, my tones have never been that muffled before and it kinda put the fear of God in me haha, so just wanted to check! Here's an idea of what my tones sound like through the cab sim - I recorded this into Garageband with no EQ fixing afterwards - just straight from the axe into my macbook via USB. (The treble setting on the amp block is 0 for this patch)

 
I would have to say that if you changed nothing in your preset that you have gigged with before that last gig I would have to say it was the PA and or the venue at that particular gig. Did the sound person have the EQ set flat in the channel you were in before he messed with it?

What type of PA and venue was it, Pro or semi Pro ? A lot of different factors going on that could cause that problem and to suspect the Axe if you haven't changed anything is highly unlikely.

As to running 0 treble in a preset, that's pretty extreme and would contribute to a wooly sound in the house. If you like that sound coming from your cab you might place a EQ before the effects loop block and pull out the highs their add treble back in at the amp block so the FOH can have more to work with.
 
I can attest to the Matrix Fr212 being amazing. I love mine and it completely feels like an "amp in the room" It seems to be a very true representation also.
 
I would guess it was the FOH speakers, the sound mixer, or perhaps a technical problem (bad XLR cable to FOH snake, etc.). If your direct tone has sounded good the majority of the time through the previous PA systems, I'd chalk this one up as an isolated instance, but something to keep an eye on. Do you have any Full Range PA cabinets at home to double check against? Double check to make sure global EQ is set flat?

I do agree with Sixstring, with respect to treble frequencies. Generally, a guitar tone that is too "pretty" will get buried in a full band mix, so sometimes boosting the presence frequencies and midrange will help make the guitar stand out better in a mix. But that's a subjective thing. If you're performing on lots of different PA systems, I'd recommend you hire your own FOH mixer who is familiar with the band and how your AxeFx should typically sound. When feeding a direct line to FOH, the most important and expected variables will be the person mixing at FOH, and the PA system itself. Either one or both can make or break your sound. Employing your own trusted sound mixer will greatly minimize the possibility of things going wrong in the main PA system.
 
Thanks for the reply! Yep nothing was changed in the preset and the engineer did say his rig is bass-ier than most, but I found it to be such a massive difference that I don't know if that was the whole reason. It was a pro venue/PA (although I couldn't tell you the specs) - its a smaller venue that the likes of Saxon and Echo and the Bunnymen play, that kinda level.

RE: the treble. Yeah I know, it is pretty extreme. But as I say, I usually get good results with it. I've just recorded some more unaltered demos of some of my presets with my diff guitars so you get an idea of what they sound like when being recorded directly. (I'll upload them in a sec). Perhaps I should do as you suggest and and some more treble in and EQ the feed to my cab. My problem there though is that I don't have anything to really test out the output 1 tone before I take it to a gig. Hence the question about the FRFR, whether that would give me a near enough representation.
 
Cheers for the info mate, it is becoming quite tempting. Although I really like the tone I'm getting through my cab - I was hoping to use the FRFR more as a 'tweaking tool' so I have a better idea of whats going out to FOH
 
Here's a wider selection of my patches (I'm in a Journey/Foreigner tribute, hence all the Journey and Foreigner haha!). Again, these are recorded direct, with no altering of the EQ after the recording. Most of these have very little treble in the amp block (and in some cases 0), yet sound fine to me.

Track 1: Clean Fender Twin with Musicman JP12 on middle position. (Queensryche Take Hold of the Flame)
Track 2: Dirty Friedman BE with Musicman JP12 on bridge. (Journey Separate Ways)
Track 3: Lead Friedman BE with Musicman JP12 on bridge (Journey Stone in Love)
Track 4: Dirty Brit Brown with Gibson Les Paul on bridge (Foreigner Double Vision)
Track 5: Low Gain Dirty Brit Brown with Gibson Les Paul on Bridge (Foreigner Feels Like The First Time)
Track 6: Lead with Brit Brown/TS808 with Gibson Les Paul on Bridge (Foreigner Jukebox Hero)

Please excuse the sloppy playing.

 
Not that I know of! They aren't bright or cutting to my ears, but at the same time they aren't wooly or muffled either (although I may well up the treble a notch or two now).

But still, at the last gig the muffling was so extreme, whereas at the others my tones were more or less just as I hear them here. Perhaps I should try them through an FRFR? Or would an in house PA still potentially be drastically different?
 
Fair play, I thought that might be the case.

Am I best off leaving the patches as they are and letting the engineers sort it out do you reckon? Or tweaking them with an FRFR? This is still a big learning process for me haha! Really appreciating all the help here :)
 
I'd get yourself some type of FRFR to prepare your patches for FOH. Either a monitor of sorts or some decent headphones. IMO my tones are brighter and my other guitarist's are darker more like yours. If you're really happy with them at other gigs then I'd say leave them and if you have an issue adjust your global eq a bit at the venue. At loud volumes I'm sure these patches brighten a bit too. Maybe lower your bass cut a bit or instead use a PEQ at the end to more roll off the lows and highs instead of a cut.

Just don't rush to the conclusion that your tones are bad if you've been mostly happy with them.
 
Thanks for the advice there Keg. When you say lower the bass cut, which way do you mean? As in more like in the 100s or more towards 20 (re: hz).
 
unless I'm missing something (or it wasn't included in your post) you have a cab sim going to FOH, then send OUT2 -> Matrix GT800fx -> Marshall 2x12.
Are you splitting the feed to OUT before the OUT1 cab?
if not, you are sending OUT2 thru TWO sets of cabs and there's no way the sound is going to match.
That, coupled with the low treble setting might be the cause?
Can you post an AxeEdit screen shot of your preset?
 
Thanks for the advice there Keg. When you say lower the bass cut, which way do you mean? As in more like in the 100s or more towards 20 (re: hz).

Sorry I meant raise your bass cut a bit. Although I think I like the PEQ rolloff method a bit better myself. Because I don't often like the tone with certain low's cut but more just rolled off.
 
Another thing you can do is play a variety of phrases, chunking , leads etc. thru the lopper and go out into the house during soundcheck.
 
Hi Alex,

It's John Hardman, Matt's mate. If you need some advice give me a message on FB or a call (although I'm in the US at the moment). I work for Matrix so should be able to help with that route although I'm happy to give some impartial info too.
 
s0c9, the way my presets are laid out is one chain goes to a cab sim right at the end, which then goes to OUT1. Just before the cab sim, I have an offshoot to another chain with a PEQ and FX send. This then goes to OUT2, which is hooked up to the Matrix and my actual cab.

This screenshot is from an old version of my preset - I've tweaked the layout since, but the routing is still pretty much the same :)
 

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s0c9, the way my presets are laid out is one chain goes to a cab sim right at the end, which then goes to OUT1. Just before the cab sim, I have an offshoot to another chain with a PEQ and FX send. This then goes to OUT2, which is hooked up to the Matrix and my actual cab.

This screenshot is from an old version of my preset - I've tweaked the layout since, but the routing is still pretty much the same :)
That looks right.. will have to look at it tonight in more detail as I'm at work.
Can you post a download link to the preset?
 
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