FRFR tests at AXE-FEST WEST 2012

[Fat Pete]

I know that this may not be well received on a forum like this, but I was somewhat disappointed with the PA and a bit underwhelmed by the FRFR that I heard. I am a big fan of the Axe, which is why I was willing to fly there. When all of the big performers like James Santiago, Dweezil Zappa, and Tosin Obosi played, you forgot all about the sound quality cause these guys would sound good through an am radio. They all really shined. Very interesting people as well.

What really messed with me was walking down the hall to the amp rooms like Friedman, Bogner, Metropoulos, etc and then coming back. The tone coming from those rooms was crushing. Absolutely amazing. I even tried a couple. When I got back, everything sounded a bit sterile in comparison.

Now to be fair, I was there for most of Saturday and some of Sunday, and I didn't see the four cable method demoed. I'm sure I missed some things. Of all of the FRFR monitors I liked the RCF the best. I get pretty good results from the Axe at home. My personal gear comparison is Dynaudio studio monitors with tannoy subs and my Engl power amp to a 2X12 Engl cab. I still love my unit.

On a general side note: Even the best sounding Boutique amps don't totally translate if you go listen to there clips online and compare to what they sound like live. I can say this now that I have. In my position, I am not well suited to record real amps compared to the potential of the Axe. Only having a small studio with limited capabilities, The Axe will suit me better. I get great results when recording and still get really good live results.

Simply put, I was expecting more from the sound in the Axe venue.

To be fair you were listening to amplifiers in small rooms. The FRFR room was huge and sound dissipated very quickly. I think you would find that if you moved that FRFR setup to a small hotel room the sound would indeed be more crushing.

 

[Stadanko]

Fair point. I should have used a different term. Though the volume was loud in the smaller rooms(too much in some cases), the tone difference was still there. I was up close and personal with the FRFR stuff at deafening volumes too. I heard what I heard.

I realize no one here is going to want to see a post like that and I don't say it without regard. When I played the amps myself I turned them down whenever I could.

 

[Tommy Tequila]

I realize no one here is going to want to see a post like that and I don't say it without regard.

Absolutely nothing wrong with your opinion, no need to defend yourself, etc. -- you may just prefer the immediacy of a real cab, or maybe none of the FRFR solutions on display rang your chimes (maybe a different one would.)

Did you try the Axe->Matrix Amp->Friedman 4x12 cabs setup we had to see if that fit your expectations better?

TT

 

[Gamedojo]

I know that this may not be well received on a forum like this, but I was somewhat disappointed with the PA and a bit underwhelmed by the FRFR that I heard. I am a big fan of the Axe, which is why I was willing to fly there. When all of the big performers like James Santiago, Dweezil Zappa, and Tosin Obosi played, you forgot all about the sound quality cause these guys would sound good through an am radio. They all really shined. Very interesting people as well.

What really messed with me was walking down the hall to the amp rooms like Friedman, Bogner, Metropoulos, etc and then coming back. The tone coming from those rooms was crushing. Absolutely amazing. I even tried a couple. When I got back, everything sounded a bit sterile in comparison.

Now to be fair, I was there for most of Saturday and some of Sunday, and I didn't see the four cable method demoed. I'm sure I missed some things. Of all of the FRFR monitors I liked the RCF the best. I get pretty good results from the Axe at home. My personal gear comparison is Dynaudio studio monitors with tannoy subs and my Engl power amp to a 2X12 Engl cab. I still love my unit.

On a general side note: Even the best sounding Boutique amps don't totally translate if you go listen to there clips online and compare to what they sound like live. I can say this now that I have. In my position, I am not well suited to record real amps compared to the potential of the Axe. Only having a small studio with limited capabilities, The Axe will suit me better. I get great results when recording and still get really good live results.

Simply put, I was expecting more from the sound in the Axe venue.

Here's where MOST go wrong. You can't compare the AxeFx2 to any amp in room. This mistake is HUGE and I've doing my best to explain why whenever the opportunity comes to light:

Those amps you hear in the hallways and in the rooms sound great because you are off-axis and at a distance from the speakers. This is NOT the sound you'll be able to get from these amps live and FOH. Once you stick an SM57 in front of one of the speakers and send that tone through a massive PA system, the nuences you think you hear in a great tube amp are distilled down to a tone that you might be shocked to hear.

What the AxeFx2 is doing, is allowing you to tweak and build you guitar tone from the FOH perspective. This is a HUGE advantage over any guitar amp ever built. The only TRUE way of comparing the two tones would be running them both into a Big PA system and standing out in the audience to hear how both translate.

*NOTE another aspect that I made a post about here, and think it should be a "Sticky" is the need to add a generous mid-boost to any patch when playing the AxefX at gig levels. Tube amps have a tendency to have a midrange push to them both because of tubes and the speakers when played at this volume and the AxeFx can't do that. So when you take a low-volume patch that sounds good recorded, and get it into the 100db+ range, they can start to sound sterile.

YOu're not wrong in what you hear, you are just wrong in the understanding of what the axefx brings to the equation.

 

[youngmic]

Fair point. I should have used a different term. Though the volume was loud in the smaller rooms(too much in some cases), the tone difference was still there. I was up close and personal with the FRFR stuff at deafening volumes too. I heard what I heard.

I realize no one here is going to want to see a post like that and I don't say it without regard. When I played the amps myself I turned them down whenever I could.

I'm not sure you can really compare the feel of playing through a guitar cab with playing through a full range monitor. They are two different experiences. I really, really like my EAW's. But the other day, just because, I hooked up my old rig (TOL 100 and THD 2x12). It was revelatory. I realized that I missed that experience - the feel, the sound, etc. Then I played the Axe through the power section of the TOL 100. Guess what? It wasn't the difference between the head and the Axe. It was the cab vs. the monitor. As great as the EAW is, it doesn't really replicate that cab sound. They are just different animals.

But the truth is, in my playing situation, I had begun to isolate the cab more and more to control stage volume. We eventually put it into a side room totally off the stage. So most of what I was hearing was the stage monitor. Granted, there was a lot of low end coming from that room that still left vestiges of a "backline", but the transition to powered monitor only was made easier by that step. In other words, i transitioned to a point where the monitor mix was more important than the direct sound of my backline solution in terms of a primary monitoring source.

In order to appreciate any full range powered monitor solution, you have to make that transition. I just don't think the two experiences are comparable in terms of sound and vibe.

I toured the amp show as well and agree. The sound in those rooms moved me far more than any of the FRFR solutions - including my own. However, I'm willing to bet that you would have the same experience if you had been playing through the respective cabs in those rooms with an Axe Fx and a good power amp.

My playing context is churches - almost exclusively. I've often wondered how much more difficult the transition to FRFR would have been had I been playing in small clubs, depending on the sound of my cab(s) to reinforce the sound of the PA both on stage and out front.

For me, finding the right FRFR solution was both difficult and scary. It was a complete unknown. And even with what I described above, it was a paradigm shift. For my current context, I couldn't be happier with the solution I chose. But I often miss the opportunity to experience the feel of that cab behind or beside me.

 

[Robboman]

Simply put, I was expecting more from the sound in the Axe venue.

Simply put, you can't stand in a room and directly compare amp>cab with Axe>FRFR. You CAN directly compare amp>cab and Axe>poweramp>cab.

 

[youngmic]

Here's where MOST go wrong. You can't compare the AxeFx2 to any amp in room. This mistake is HUGE and I've doing my best to explain why whenever the opportunity comes to light:

Those amps you hear in the hallways and in the rooms sound great because you are off-axis and at a distance from the speakers. This is NOT the sound you'll be able to get from these amps live and FOH. Once you stick an SM57 in front of one of the speakers and send that tone through a massive PA system, the nuences you think you hear in a great tube amp are distilled down to a tone that you might be shocked to hear.

What the AxeFx2 is doing, is allowing you to tweak and build you guitar tone from the FOH perspective. This is a HUGE advantage over any guitar amp ever built. The only TRUE way of comparing the two tones would be running them both into a Big PA system and standing out in the audience to hear how both translate.

*NOTE another aspect that I made a post about here, and think it should be a "Sticky" is the need to add a generous mid-boost to any patch when playing the AxefX at gig levels. Tube amps have a tendency to have a midrange push to them both because of tubes and the speakers when played at this volume and the AxeFx can't do that. So when you take a low-volume patch that sounds good recorded, and get it into the 100db+ range, they can start to sound sterile.

YOu're not wrong in what you hear, you are just wrong in the understanding of what the axefx brings to the equation.

Yep. I would just say that you can't compare the Axe Fx through an FRFR with an Axe FX through a poweramp into a traditional guitar cab. It's not the Axe Fx that represents the variable. It's the speaker solution.

 

[youngmic]

Simply put, you can't stand in a room and directly compare amp>cab with Axe>FRFR. You CAN directly compare amp>cab and Axe>poweramp>cab.

Yep. Simply put is put better.

 

[Robboman]

Simply put, you can't stand in a room and directly compare amp>cab with Axe>FRFR. You CAN directly compare amp>cab and Axe>poweramp>cab.

Alternatively, you can compare amp>cab>mic>micpre>FRFR directly against Axe>FRFR (using IR of course).

So if you could have miced one of those great cabs in the small room, ran the cable down the hall into the Axe FRFR room..

Sorry to quote myself..

 

[Stadanko]

All good points. I appreciate the discussion.

Trying to mic and record cabs myself, I can understand what doesn't translate from that perspective. Though not a live example, what I said about recording and using the axe is somewhat similar. I can't get my rig to sound as good as the axe does when I record. I think the same principle applies. Not that good recordings can't be made with the right conditions from live rigs, but the axe translates more easily and reliably through a sound system (PA or studio) than a mic'd cab. I haven't played live through a PA myself so I can't speak from experience.

As far as playing feel, I can only say that what you said is true for me as well youngmic. In my case, its from a playing at home perspective. The amp/speaker solutions are different animals. The Axe will continue to be an important part of my guitar playing. I think I had some things built up in my mind, and after the show I need to adjust my thinking a bit.

I can say this though. I wish it all sounded and felt the way we want it to all the time!8)

 

[fremen]

What the AxeFx2 is doing, is allowing you to tweak and build you guitar tone from the FOH perspective. This is a HUGE advantage over any guitar amp ever built

And that's the very reason that many years ago – even before 2009 when I got my Axe Standard – I chose to play with amp simulators instead of traditional amps. I love my tube amp but was always very underwhelmed with how the warm sound I love translated into the PA, not matter how much time I/the soundguy tried to find the sweet spot for the SM57/E609/whatever. I've never sounded better than with the Axe, even on a less than average PA. In my experience, Axe on a average PA > tube amp+SM57 on a good PA. But for that of course a quality patch making is critical. Anything that sounds good on my "monitors" at home, in fact hifi speakers which I've been using since I play guitar (30 years now), will sound good on a PA.

 

[FractalAudio]

All good points. I appreciate the discussion.

Trying to mic and record cabs myself, I can understand what doesn't translate from that perspective. Though not a live example, what I said about recording and using the axe is somewhat similar. I can't get my rig to sound as good as the axe does when I record. I think the same principle applies. Not that good recordings can't be made with the right conditions from live rigs, but the axe translates more easily and reliably through a sound system (PA or studio) than a mic'd cab. I haven't played live through a PA myself so I can't speak from experience.

As far as playing feel, I can only say that what you said is true for me as well youngmic. In my case, its from a playing at home perspective. The amp/speaker solutions are different animals. The Axe will continue to be an important part of my guitar playing. I think I had some things built up in my mind, and after the show I need to adjust my thinking a bit.

I can say this though. I wish it all sounded and felt the way we want it to all the time!8)

That's why there is the Global Cabinet Bypass. Hook up a traditional guitar cab, turn off Global Cabs and enjoy.

 

[Stadanko]

I bypass the cabs or leave the block out when I'm running through amp and cab. Haven't had good results running cab IR's and cabs together. That's one of those, "what's wrong with my sound?" "Oh yeah, I left the cab sim on!" :shock

 

[Rex]

What really messed with me was walking down the hall to the amp rooms like Friedman, Bogner, Metropoulos, etc and then coming back. The tone coming from those rooms was crushing. Absolutely amazing. I even tried a couple. When I got back, everything sounded a bit sterile in comparison.

Unless you have one ear plastered to the face of the cabinet and the other one plugged shut, a big part of what you're hearing is the room, not just the amp. If you want to compare rigs, you need to hear them in the same room—in fact, to do it right, the speakers need to be in the same spot in that room for every test, as do your ears. A difference of a few inches will sometimes make a huge difference in what you hear.

I totally get that you're hearing what you're hearing, though.

 

[Stadanko]

I can a test to having experienced room dynamics with sound variations regarding a variety of speakers and applications over time. For this reason I cannot say with certainty that I know what made things sound the way they did. Its fair to speculate on that to some degree I think.

One Issue that I heard at the show and am dealing with at home is a tendency to hear more harshness with the high end especially when playing up in the higher register. Piercing highs basically, but not always. This is not exclusive to the Axe as Tube amps can behave this way as well. I realize that there are a number of ways to attack the problem but with all of the shaping features in the Axe, I feel at a loss to find the balance between tone and smoothness in this regard. This is a can of worms, so I'm not suggesting running away with this thread.

What blew me away were the Plexi style amps. The Friedman, Metropoulos, Bray types. They tend to be my thing I guess. More over they all had a smoothness in the high end along with all that awesome mid to high gain tone that melts in your hands. Because I never get close to amps of that caliber, I didn't know what I was missing.

When I got home, my tones sounded harsh and brittle to me. Not just with the Axe, but my Engl as well. I'm working on it now and have some ways to go. For me this is not going to be a quick fix. I'm starting from scratch with my patches in some ways. Lots to consider......

 

[stefherbuel]

The only TRUE way of comparing the two tones would be running them both into a Big PA system and standing out in the audience to hear how both translate.
.

well , while i like both my tube amps and my axe fx II, there's a thing to consider : people like "amp in the room" like they like a real drum kit played in the room.it has this "3d" quality like a real voice, real saxophone etc played in front of you.
i don't know where you guys play , but in big stadium a real drum Vs a electronic drum will not make the difference for audience , but in club.....i far prefer hear the real drum (+ drum mixed in the PA eventually) against a electronic drum alone .makes a HUGE difference
same goes for guitar , in club i like to hear the "amp in the room" sound (if the guitar amp is at drum volume, you'll hear it!) mixed with PA if in less volume !
the best guitars sounds i ever heard was in these config.
don't forget it's an instrument like a real piano or real drum, the PA , recording device TRY to reproduce that.but i enjoy more hearing the dynamic of a real drum or a real amp in the room.
if you add to that that lots of PA are crappy PA , amp in the room can make à huge difference in sound quality in clubs.

Axe on a average PA > tube amp+SM57 on a good PA..

not mine at all thibault ;-) i use hi end molded in ears , so i hear what goes in PA in different situations (modelers or mic, etc) and i have to say that i don't agree with you there

BTW when comparing apple to apple , in my home studio , there the axe fx II really shine , to me, like a electronic drum shine Vs a real drum too.
but live, i like to hear real drum, real amp , etc

but you maybe all play in stadiums ? (just joking guys !! :--)

PS : one of my guitar "dream" is ,one day, to see Mike LANDAU (my hero ! lol) playing live in baked potatoes.
believe me , the day it will come , i will be next to his amp, not next to the PA.

 

[fremen]

i don't know where you guys play , but in big stadium a real drum Vs a electronic drum will not make the difference for audience , but in club.....i far prefer hear the real drum (+ drum mixed in the PA eventually) against a electronic drum alone .makes a HUGE difference

That's the thing, we're all big stars here in this forum, we all play big stadiums :mrgreen

(That's me in 1990, lol, more hairs, less fat there were 7000 people that day ; once I played in front of 30 000)

Seriously, I know that my experience is only related with the gear available here. Mauritius still has a foot in the third world

 

[Scott Peterson]

PS : one of my guitar "dream" is ,one day, to see Mike LANDAU (my hero ! lol) playing live in baked potatoes.
believe me , the day it will come , i will be next to his amp, not next to the PA.

With your luck, that day will come and you'll sit in the day he uses a modeler direct to FOH. LOL!

 

[cobbler]

PS : one of my guitar "dream" is ,one day, to see Mike LANDAU (my hero ! lol) playing live in baked potatoes.
believe me , the day it will come , i will be next to his amp, not next to the PA.

He was just there over the weekend. You could have come to Axe Fest and fulfilled your dream all in one day.

 

[scottburrow]

He was just there over the weekend. You could have come to Axe Fest and fulfilled your dream all in one day.

We could have gone there for dinner, dang...