FRFR tests at AXE-FEST WEST 2012

[Sidivan]

Did I read the word "EDIT" ? Why, oh why ? Please, save you the hassle of doing that and release the whole schnizit :mrgreen

[/jk]Seriously, if you did, I wouldwatch all of it I plan to go to the States for the first time of my life next year, and if I do, I'll be waiting for the next Amp Fest dates before choosing the period. That will be a 18+ hours trip just to land in America for me

I made the trek to Mauritius in 2007, worked there for 5 months, and returned. The 13hrs in a plane between Mauritius and London is the really brutal part.

 

[ML SOUND LAB]

A post regarding the original topic: Really hard to make any conclusions since it's going through the camera mic and the sound varies drastically due to mic positions etc. anyways.. everything seemed to sound pretty good except the Alto. Clean tones were kind of a letdown for me but it could've been the preset itself.

 

[Secret80'sMan]

FWIW, MSRP for these JBLs are only $1200 and I found one used for $800, so $2K isn't really true. Now if someone is out there spending $3K plus for ONE of those EAWs, considering their size and weight, I have to really wonder what they are thinking. A) the size and weight takes away one of the best aspects of the Axe rig: Lightweight low profile rig. And B) why on EARTH would you spend that kind of money on a speaker that only you will hear?

My personal opinion is that guys should be buying PA speakers for their monitors in a range somewhere in the same average range of the PA speakers you'll be playing through so that the tone you hear from your monitor is as close to exactly whats pumping into the PA system. These dedicated AxeFx FRFR monitors are probably going to hurt your FOH sound (in my opinion) because you'll end up setting your patches to sound best through speakers that will not react or sound like the FOH speakers.

This is why I'm so impressed with my mid to high range JBL wedge. Its SO clear and tight that I can REALLY dial my patches in so that I know, in the best PA systems, there will be no questionable tone issues. Murky, smeared mids, big bass, full sounding cabs that make your Axe sound more like an amp pumping into a speaker cab is probably hiding all the subtle bad tones built into a patch. Sounds great because of how the wedge hides that stuff...but in a 110db PA system, all that shrapnell and harsh artifacts are going to pummel your audience. In a sense, you'll be reverting back to the age old problems of the Guitar/cab/mic issues pre-axefx.

Gamedojo, you couldn't have said it any better and that's why I am still undecided on a good, cost effective FRFR solution where my patches for the most part will translate well to FOH. Not happening right now through my BX8a studio monitors, not happening through my piece of shit Fender 1270 Coaxial driver floor wedges and not happening through my ten year old 12 inch EV PA speakers with horns.

I would love to spend $800-$1000 total for two small light wedges that will get my tones in the ballpark of what the audience will hear FOH (at leat 90% of the way there). I keep hearing about new solutions on the horizon but they keep getting delayed for one reason or another it seems. Whoever makes this happen in this price range is going to clean up and I'll be first in line.

 

[Tommy Tequila]

This is why I'm so impressed with my mid to high range JBL wedge. Its SO clear and tight that I can REALLY dial my patches in so that I
know, in the best PA systems, there will be no questionable tone issues.

Tyler -- And the model of that JBL wedge is...?

Thanks,
TT

 

[tgunn]

But isn't that assuming that your monitors have the same response curve as the PA?
A flat curve should generally be safer since it's right there in the middle, right?

 

[youngmic]

FWIW, MSRP for these JBLs are only $1200 and I found one used for $800, so $2K isn't really true. Now if someone is out there spending $3K plus for ONE of those EAWs, considering their size and weight, I have to really wonder what they are thinking. A) the size and weight takes away one of the best aspects of the Axe rig: Lightweight low profile rig. And B) why on EARTH would you spend that kind of money on a speaker that only you will hear?

My personal opinion is that guys should be buying PA speakers for their monitors in a range somewhere in the same average range of the PA speakers you'll be playing through so that the tone you hear from your monitor is as close to exactly whats pumping into the PA system. These dedicated AxeFx FRFR monitors are probably going to hurt your FOH sound (in my opinion) because you'll end up setting your patches to sound best through speakers that will not react or sound like the FOH speakers.

This is why I'm so impressed with my mid to high range JBL wedge. Its SO clear and tight that I can REALLY dial my patches in so that I know, in the best PA systems, there will be no questionable tone issues. Murky, smeared mids, big bass, full sounding cabs that make your Axe sound more like an amp pumping into a speaker cab is probably hiding all the subtle bad tones built into a patch. Sounds great because of how the wedge hides that stuff...but in a 110db PA system, all that shrapnell and harsh artifacts are going to pummel your audience. In a sense, you'll be reverting back to the age old problems of the Guitar/cab/mic issues pre-axefx.

Well, what they are thinking is that they will have one of the most neutral solutions available with which to do exactly as you described - dial in your Axe Fx with no questionable tone issues in the best PA systems. Having the ability to take that solution with you to play through (as against, say, a set of high-end studio monitors) provides consistency in your playing experience. As to the cost, well, if you have the budget, why not? Not sure I get the strong reaction to that. Yeah, it's beyond the reach of most of us (I certainly didn't pay that much), but why does that lead to a "should" or "should not" conclusion? Why would someone pay $4000 + for a new Tyler? To whom does it make the most difference? I would argue that it makes the most difference to the player. That, then, translates to the hearer in the form of better playing and expression. In many ways, you could say the same about the Axe Fx. How significant a component of the Axe Fx's appeal lies in the feel it provides the player? i would argue a very significant component.

So I would say this differently - big and loud is not the goal - it certainly was not the goal when I bought the EAW's. I was looking for the most accurate and neutral solution available. In my opinion, most (if not all) prosumer gear is going to add more color to your tone and you're going to compensate for that, leading to the FOH issues you mention. Now I'm not saying that these solutions are bad. But I am saying if someone (like me) wants to go several miles further, why challenge their thinking? In fact, I would wonder why you wouldn't go for the better solution if you could.

 

[Gamedojo]

Tyler -- And the model of that JBL wedge is...?

Thanks,
TT

SRX 712m

 

[luke]

I would love to spend $800-$1000 total for two small light wedges that will get my tones in the ballpark of what the audience will hear FOH (at leat 90% of the way there).

When a passive 4x12 costs more than that, I believe you might be unrealistic in your hopes.

I was willing to buy the Verves, and did, they just sounded terrible so I sold them. I was willing to buy the RCFs, and did, but one of the two was DOA with no parts availability.

I'm willing to pay for quality, but it still alludes me.

Do we know if the JBL SRX 712m is the model Cliff uses?

 

[fremen]

I made the trek to Mauritius in 2007, worked there for 5 months, and returned. The 13hrs in a plane between Mauritius and London is the really brutal part.

(sorry for the off topic) Isn't it you that like a specific snack for its sandwiches in Quatre-Bornes ?

 

[BBN]

Do we know if the JBL SRX 712m is the model Cliff uses?

Yes. And they are not the most current model (JBL just launched a newer 1x12 wedge)....but they are still widely available at online stores.
I have the larger version for my FOH PA. SRX722 (dual 12" tops) and SRX728 (dual 18" Subs).
Great speakers....I keep thinking of grabbing one of the 712's for my Axe....just not in love with having to add a power amp to my rack.

I would love to hear some opinions of the RCF NX12 to the JBL SRX712...from anyone who heard them side by side at the Axe Fest.

 

[lscottk]

The main stage during AxeFest was using a pair of QSC K-12s with a single QSC sub. I don't know if it will translate well on the video but James Santiago's tone was sublime through this system. All comments that I heard about his tone and performance mentioned how great he was and how great his tone was. I don't believe he adjusted his patches to compensate for any deficiencies in the K12s. He just sounded incredible even though we heard him through middle of the road speakers.

 

[youngmic]

The main stage during AxeFest was using a pair of QSC K-12s with a single QSC sub. I don't know if it will translate well on the video but James Santiago's tone was sublime through this system. All comments that I heard about his tone and performance mentioned how great he was and how great his tone was. I don't believe he adjusted his patches to compensate for any deficiencies in the K12s. He just sounded incredible even though we heard him through middle of the road speakers.

I actually noted that myself and agree.

 

[cobbler]

What model are the JBLs? Are they still manufactured?

They were SRX-712M's. They are no longer available and being replaced by the STX-812M. The 812's "supposedly" have improved on the bottom end compared to the 712's.

And YES, the 712's are the model Cliff uses. I did hear SECOND HAND this weekend that he felt the two used this weekend lacked a little in the bottom end compared to his. This could be becasue they were fresh out of the box new of course.

 

[Tommy Tequila]

RE: The QSC's on the stage, it's like anything else -- they aren't *bad*, and there was nothing to instantly compare them to so it sounded fine. I'm really looking forward to hearing James Santiago's IR's and patches on my studio monitors, etc.

One issue I had was that it seemed they were being overdriven for some of the music presentations (and indeed, one blew up after Tosin got through with it).

My .02,
TT

 

[javajunkie]

RE: The QSC's on the stage, it's like anything else -- they aren't *bad*, and there was nothing to instantly compare them to so it sounded fine. I'm really looking forward to hearing James Santiago's IR's and patches on my studio monitors, etc.

One issue I had was that it seemed they were being overdriven for some of the music presentations (and indeed, one blew up after Tosin got through with it).




My .02,
TT

Tosin was playing through the pearl. The backing track was only being played though the PA.
The QSC failed well after that.

 

[Tommy Tequila]

My bad, then. I just knew one of the demo room QSC's was snagged pretty early Sunday.

TT

 

[Secret80'sMan]

When a passive 4x12 costs more than that, I believe you might be unrealistic in your hopes.

I was willing to buy the Verves, and did, they just sounded terrible so I sold them. I was willing to buy the RCFs, and did, but one of the two was DOA with no parts availability.

I'm willing to pay for quality, but it still alludes me.

In a passive version am I really being that unrealistic? This should not be the case and manufacturers should really position something for this segment of the market. You should be able to get a decent pair of passive FRFR wedges that won't cause you a hernia to carry for less than a grand.

 

[Sidivan]

(sorry for the off topic) Isn't it you that like a specific snack for its sandwiches in Quatre-Bornes ?

Glen's Grill! Hot Dogs from Heaven, I swear. If I could figure out how he makes his coleslaw and chili sauce, I could make a million dollars here in the states. Le Bon Choix (sp?) is good as well.

 

[Fat Pete]

They were all certainly usable. The RCFs had a beautiful top end from what I remember and even the little single 10 sounded great. The Matrix wedges midrange was very pronounced and focused. That is definitely a good thing when you are playing guitar on stage and need to cut through the other instruments. They were also very very compact which was a pleasant surprise as they look big in the photos. Yes the EAWs sounded wonderful and did everything right. I will risk being unpopular and say I actually liked the FBTs. They had a bit of a scooped midrange and were comfortable to listen to. Maybe not the most practical on stage but pleasing to my ear.

 

[Stadanko]

I know that this may not be well received on a forum like this, but I was somewhat disappointed with the PA and a bit underwhelmed by the FRFR that I heard. I am a big fan of the Axe, which is why I was willing to fly there. When all of the big performers like James Santiago, Dweezil Zappa, and Tosin Obosi played, you forgot all about the sound quality cause these guys would sound good through an am radio. They all really shined. Very interesting people as well.

What really messed with me was walking down the hall to the amp rooms like Friedman, Bogner, Metropoulos, etc and then coming back. The tone coming from those rooms was crushing. Absolutely amazing. I even tried a couple. When I got back, everything sounded a bit sterile in comparison.

Now to be fair, I was there for most of Saturday and some of Sunday, and I didn't see the four cable method demoed. I'm sure I missed some things. Of all of the FRFR monitors I liked the RCF the best. I get pretty good results from the Axe at home. My personal gear comparison is Dynaudio studio monitors with tannoy subs and my Engl power amp to a 2X12 Engl cab. I still love my unit.

On a general side note: Even the best sounding Boutique amps don't totally translate if you go listen to there clips online and compare to what they sound like live. I can say this now that I have. In my position, I am not well suited to record real amps compared to the potential of the Axe. Only having a small studio with limited capabilities, The Axe will suit me better. I get great results when recording and still get really good live results.

Simply put, I was expecting more from the sound in the Axe venue.