FRFR sounds terrible to my ears compared to poweramp/cab. What am I doing wrong?

Hey guys, so I'm used to playing the axe through a poweramp and 2x12 cab and it sounds absolutely phenomenal, but whenever I hook it up to my Yamaha HS8's to do some recording, it sounds pretty awful in comparison. I make all the necessary changes in the global and I/O menus, and try tweaking the patches and changing IR's and stuff, but I can never shake a fizzy, overly middy, one dimensional sound quality. Through my cab it sounds like an amp - it has depth, and crunch and just sounds great. I'm well aware of the endless 'amp in the room' debates and how FRFR is meant to portray a more finished, produced sound, but what really confuses me is that the experience of playing FRFR is to me, very undesirable. It's just not any fun. So when I hear the legions of amateurs and pro's raving about the axe used in this way, it just leaves me very confused. Am I doing something fundamentally wrong, or is FRFR just not for me?

(I should add, it's not like I've got loads of experience with tube amps, and there's absolutely no snobbery on my part. I just think I have to be going wrong somewhere. The gulf in tone and feel is far too big to my ears to relate to what other people are experiencing).
 
The best way to explain it is......

Put your rig in an isolation booth, close mic it with a really great mic or mics. run it through a high quality pre-amp. Then stand in the control room and play while listening through the monitors. This is really what your rig sounds like on a recording or in the audience at a large live show.

You and a couple of band mates are the only people in the entire room that experience what a guitar cab sounds like off axis, from 10 or 20 feet away. FRFR is quite different, but in my opinion it's the truth.

For me, I need to hear what my audience is hearing. I couldn't imagine going back to the lie.

If you mic you cab live, that is what your rig sounds like in your monitors and to everyone else. As mentioned above, try shooting an IR of you cab. If that doesn't work for you, then FRFR is not for you. No big deal, lots of people can't handle the truth:eagerness:......lol.........everybody is different.
 
Yeah I could be wrong but it sounds more like you are missing the cab pushing air rather than the actual tone or am I wrong? If that is the case and it's less about tone and more of just feel, I went through that same thing it took me about two weeks maybe less to adjust. But I also use IEM so that made my transition I feel faster.

Edit: I re read your post, I'm not sure you are"doing" anything wrong but it could just be that the FRFR speakers you are using might not be very good. I know normally Yamaha is decent but it could be speakers, also it might be your sound card if you are trying to monitor via daw. I suggest this, plug into a PA system that has decent speakers and make sure the Eq is flat on the chan the axe is on and see what it sounds like. That will tell you if FRFR is even something you should consider.
 
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Hey guys, so I'm used to playing the axe through a poweramp and 2x12 cab and it sounds absolutely phenomenal, but whenever I hook it up to my Yamaha HS8's to do some recording, it sounds pretty awful in comparison.
You got a little set of monitor speakers..not PA or FRFR types.
I have a set of Mackie hr824s that for monitor speakers pack a neat punch....
...but I could not hear the dynamics properly.

Recently I purchased a set of JBL SR812P pa speakers and Goodnight Irene....
 
Hi Andy.
I would start by picking an IR of a cab which is similar to yours. Possibly start with a 1x12 instead of a 2x12.
Then create a patch from scratch. Don't take one of your usual patches and just transfer to the FRFR thing. Start from scratch with an amp, a cab and a reverb (maybe), to dial in the basic sound.
If you're not used to the additional sound coming from the tweeter on your monitors, a patch that may sound great on a cab that can't reproduce these highs will sound shrill, thin and crappy when played through monitors that suddenly allow the highs that were hidden by your cab to come through.

When I switched from cab to FRFR (and I'll probably never go back), I had to start with a fresh set of ears, new patch and most of all, a good IR. Luckily, you have a ton of good IRs stock already and with Q1, the feel is really there.

Now one more thing: If your monitors suck, no amount of tweaking will get you there. So listen to a good piece of music first at around 84dB and then set a patch like I mention above at the same volume. I'd be happy to hear how that came out.
 
Thanks for the responses all

Yeah I could be wrong but it sounds more like you are missing the cab pushing air rather than the actual tone or am I wrong? If that is the case and it's less about tone and more of just feel, I went through that same thing it took me about two weeks maybe less to adjust. But I also use IEM so that made my transition I feel faster.

Edit: I re read your post, I'm not sure you are"doing" anything wrong but it could just be that the FRFR speakers you are using might not be very good. I know normally Yamaha is decent but it could be speakers, also it might be your sound card if you are trying to monitor via daw. I suggest this, plug into a PA system that has decent speakers and make sure the Eq is flat on the chan the axe is on and see what it sounds like. That will tell you if FRFR is even something you should consider.

Honestly it's a bit of both. And I know they're not the greatest speakers in the world, but I've seen many other axe users who all seem happy with them, and they certainly sound great listening to music. And I have them plugged directly into the axe, so the soundcard is not the issue.

o
You got a little set of monitor speakers..not PA or FRFR types.
I have a set of Mackie hr824s that for monitor speakers pack a neat punch....
...but I could not hear the dynamics properly.

Recently I purchased a set of JBL SR812P pa speakers and Goodnight Irene....

I thought the purpose of so called 'studio monitors' was to provide the truest representation of the audio as possible right? Does that not make them FRFR?

Hi Andy.
I would start by picking an IR of a cab which is similar to yours. Possibly start with a 1x12 instead of a 2x12.
Then create a patch from scratch. Don't take one of your usual patches and just transfer to the FRFR thing. Start from scratch with an amp, a cab and a reverb (maybe), to dial in the basic sound.
If you're not used to the additional sound coming from the tweeter on your monitors, a patch that may sound great on a cab that can't reproduce these highs will sound shrill, thin and crappy when played through monitors that suddenly allow the highs that were hidden by your cab to come through.

When I switched from cab to FRFR (and I'll probably never go back), I had to start with a fresh set of ears, new patch and most of all, a good IR. Luckily, you have a ton of good IRs stock already and with Q1, the feel is really there.

Now one more thing: If your monitors suck, no amount of tweaking will get you there. So listen to a good piece of music first at around 84dB and then set a patch like I mention above at the same volume. I'd be happy to hear how that came out.

Thanks for the tips, I'll have a play around tomorrow and let you know how I get on :)
 
Honestly, I don't think it is possible for FRFR to sound as great as a poweramp and cab. I really don't. My friend and I had this discussion the other day. He is a Kemper user and I'm obviously a Fractal user. I think that it is similar to the whole argument between hearing an old album and a digital MP3. You don't know exactly what you are missing but there is just something that is not as warm sounding.

In my experience, my computer speakers sound outstanding with the AxeFX-II. Same with a poweramp and cab (some better than others). With FRFR speakers, it sounds great but in my opinion cannot capture what a poweramp and cab does. With that said, I don't think it is a fair comparison. FRFR is more convenient in a lot of situations whether it be size, weight, etc. I mean let's be honest, all of us would love a wall of Mesas like EVH had but we also want our spines to line up. :)

I think as we keep moving forward with different tweaks, etc. we'll keep getting closer to a more perfect FRFR tone. Look at what has been accomplished in the past 10 years with FRFR. It is just going to keep getting better.
 
Your impulse will be mic'd right up against the cone, where you're (usually) standing off-axis and several feet away with a poweramp/cab setup. Cab and room resonances play a much bigger part and alter the tone drastically. Put your ear right up against the speaker of your poweramp/cab setup. That is what your IR is capturing.

try sitting off-axis to your monitors, should make it sound more like the poweramp/cab setup.
 
Thanks for the responses all
I thought the purpose of so called 'studio monitors' was to provide the truest representation of the audio as possible right? Does that not make them FRFR?

No...it is to provide a baseline to develop consistent mixes.
Here's a link to a stereo I designed, built and own that provides a pretty good representation of audio reproduction:
http://www.superbadcat.com/images/stereo/stereo_01.jpg
 
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If the OP's description, "terrible", is his true assessment of the way the AxeFx sounds via a reasonable full range system, then IMHO something is amiss. This is different than saying it doesn't sound quite the same (as, for example, a particular traditional guitar cabinet) or that the feel is radically different.

I would guess that there are a combination of factors: AxeFx settings, gear used, and a practical understanding of how modeling/IR technology applies to both studio (controlled environment, perhaps low SPL) and live performance (louder volumes, using PA cabinets/wedges) that are conspiring to make the OP's experience less than stellar.

Unless you are are always used to certain open back speaker cabinets, or the cabinet you are using has such an odd frequency response curve, I agree that the stock IRs provided should at least be able to get you a reasonably good sound in a full range speaker system. IMHO, trying to draw a parallel experience comparing a traditional 2x12 to a pair of small studio is flawed to begin with. A more appropriate comparison for full range would be using a good quality powered PA speaker (many to choose from - I along with many others prefer the Atomic CLR due to its close-to-flat response).

The OP could provide a couple more things:

- deeper description of the gear used in the non-FR rig (speakers loaded into the cabinet, cabinet description, power amp used to drive the cabinet, etc. )

- recording of the 2x12 cabinet, and perhaps a brief description of the amp model & settings, if not the preset .syx file
 
Do you have power amp modeling turned off in the global settings to play through your amp? If you don't turn this back on when playing through FRFR it will not sound like how you described.
 
Do you ever listen to any favorite music through these monitors ? Does it always sound awful ?

That is what gets me with the "FRFR sounds bad" crowd comments, or the "I need to hear "amp in the room" etc. How many of us have ever been "in the room" with Gilmour, SRV, etc when they were tracking ? Basically none of us, right ? Only way we know those tones is what we heard on albums or through a PA system. But don't we still love those tones ?

Why do some people spend thousands of dollars on pedals trying to nail a certain Gilmour album lead tone if its such a crap because we aren't hearing it in the room ?

It should be basically pointless to listen to music through headphones, at a live show with a PA, with home stereo speakers, studio monitors etc. Basically the way I enjoy 95% of the music I've listened to my whole life should be garbage, and I should only be able to appreciate an artist tone if I'm standing 2 feet away from them when they are playing.
 
Do you ever listen to any favorite music through these monitors ? Does it always sound awful ?

That is what gets me with the "FRFR sounds bad" crowd comments, or the "I need to hear "amp in the room" etc. How many of us have ever been "in the room" with Gilmour, SRV, etc when they were tracking ? Basically none of us, right ? Only way we know those tones is what we heard on albums or through a PA system. But don't we still love those tones ?

Why do some people spend thousands of dollars on pedals trying to nail a certain Gilmour album lead tone if its such a crap because we aren't hearing it in the room ?

It should be basically pointless to listen to music through headphones, at a live show with a PA, with home stereo speakers, studio monitors etc. Basically the way I enjoy 95% of the music I've listened to my whole life should be garbage, and I should only be able to appreciate an artist tone if I'm standing 2 feet away from them when they are playing.

I think that's uncalled for. The OP asks what he is doing wrong and how to correct it. He is not a "crowd", he's a relatively new guy asking for help. The above comments just make the space a little less friendly and backs off people from participating.

A good maxim in the case of a member asking for assistance is "if I haven't anything to say that will help, say nothing". I recommend it.
 
I think that's uncalled for. The OP asks what he is doing wrong and how to correct it. He is not a "crowd", he's a relatively new guy asking for help. The above comments just make the space a little less friendly and backs off people from participating.

A good maxim in the case of a member asking for assistance is "if I haven't anything to say that will help, say nothing". I recommend it.

I simply asked the OP (who's got seemingly over 2 years experience with the Axe so hardly that new) a question regarding how other material sounds through the same monitors ?

I then voiced my opinion, as hundreds if not thousands have had the right to do, on this forum regarding the FRFR vs "amp in room" debate and my viewpoint on it, and why I feel is rather silly.

I suggest you inquire with "M" about if there are any positions open for becoming a moderator if you want to gain the ability silence any post you don't feel are helpful with silence.

My post was not off topic, did not use any insulting language or personal attacks, did not question the musicianship of anyone, did not involve politics, religion et al. You simply didn't like it, and that is fine, but someone else did, so I'm at least 50/50 in terms of forum opinion lol
 
There is something we all need to consider when creating parts in a home studio, right?
Am I in the control room listening to the mix on a set of yamaha ns10s or am I getting inspired out in the studio with my amps and cabs?

I kinda thought that was the issue in general?
 
I used 2 stock cab ir's and blended them. One was an ultra quality and the other a high quality one and i had one with a tiny bit of delay on it like Cliff mentioned in one of his posts a while back and it sounds really good to me. I have my axe running to a 412 and and a powered monitor and they sound extremely similar.
 
You simply didn't like it, and that is fine, but someone else did, so I'm at least 50/50 in terms of forum opinion lol

:) Same here. 1 like and your answer. we're both at 50%!

Seriously though, no ill intent towards your post. I just think that the OPs post is not the "Amp in the room vs. FRFR" debate but a question about why his set up sounds like dog when he goes FRFR.

My first foray into FRFR was horrible. Sounded like crap. Turned out that my presets made with amp and cab didn't translate, that I used a crappy IR, etc. Did my sound suddenly turn "amp in the room", no. But it was not so far from my amp that I thought it was unusable.

So answers that help the man find his sound are - IMO - more constructive. Right?
 
Do you ever listen to any favorite music through these monitors ? Does it always sound awful ?

That is what gets me with the "FRFR sounds bad" crowd comments, or the "I need to hear "amp in the room" etc. How many of us have ever been "in the room" with Gilmour, SRV, etc when they were tracking ? Basically none of us, right ? Only way we know those tones is what we heard on albums or through a PA system. But don't we still love those tones ?

Why do some people spend thousands of dollars on pedals trying to nail a certain Gilmour album lead tone if its such a crap because we aren't hearing it in the room ?

It should be basically pointless to listen to music through headphones, at a live show with a PA, with home stereo speakers, studio monitors etc. Basically the way I enjoy 95% of the music I've listened to my whole life should be garbage, and I should only be able to appreciate an artist tone if I'm standing 2 feet away from them when they are playing.

I agree with the OP. FRFR just does not sound anywhere near as good to me as playing through a real cab. I tried a CLR, a Mackie DLM8 and a Xitone 2x12 and NONE of them sounded as good to me as when I play through poweramp/4x12 cab. Now maybe that is because I am just not "Used to" the sound of FRFR but to me it always has this sterile, artificial/fizzy sound to it. I now have a set of Presonus Studio monitors (Eris E8's) and they have the same sterile sound to them which is (I guess) what you want from FRFR or studio monitor speakers. I am starting to get used to the way that it sounds but it will never sound as good to me as playing out of my poweramp/4x12 cab. I agree that alot of recorded tones I have heard over the years on record sound great but when I play through FRFR or record direct using the Axe and listen back via monitors or headphones, it just doesn't sound anywhere near as good as alot of those recorded tones. Why that is remains a mystery to me...
 
I think a real cab is simple and "just works" to have a nice tone. With FRFR, you (or at least I) have to really work for it. I've barely scratched the surface in tone tweaking, and I'm still pretty crappy at it. But, biggest bang for the buck so far in my learning curve, has been to reduce the high frequency cutoffs in the cab section. Take that from default 20kHz down to ~ 8kHz and it instantly sounds more cab-like and less shrill when the volume is cranked up to performance levels. Just one (but maybe the most important) of many tweaks.

One might question the point of making it harder to get a tone that was easy with a real cabinet. It's about flexibility to have the same rig nail a variety of different physical setups and to walk into a gig or a recording studio and know how you are going to sound by giving direct outs instead of mic'ing your setup. That said, getting each tone / equipment emulation dialed is a lot harder than it would seem from just reading these forums where people say "I didn't tweak much, it just sounded great." It has been difficult in my personal experience to translate the "sounds great in the bedroom" to sounds great at rehearsal/shows/recording studio. I think the tools are there, but I'm still learning to use them.
 
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