FRFR Quad Box

O

onemoreguitar

Inspired
Just letting you guys know, if you're interested, I've found a speaker system designer here in OZ who reckons he can make a quad box style FR that has quite a broad sweet spot. I want to play through an FR, but I love the aesthetics of a quad box. I definitely believe that quality of sound and feel are paramount, but if I can have my cake and eat it too, why not? Aesthetically he's looking at a Marshall/Boogie slant style quad. Sonically, he's looking at the FBT 12ma and a number of others, but with a lot more punch. I played through one of his big rigs this weekend and was quite impressed. He's knocking up some designs at the moment and should have something pretty soon. I've specifically had him focusing on getting the "in the room" feel that everyone here is so searching for. The other thing I asked him to look at was being able to accurately reproduce any sound that I build at home on cans/monitors.

That's obviously quite an ask, but he reckons he's up to it. Judging by the performance of his system on the weekend and the many recommendations I've got, I'd say he is. He didn't seem to think that anything I was asking for was undoable or even all that difficult. He's a repair agent for Yamaha Pro Audio, QSC, Allen & Heath, FBT, Kustom, dB Technologies and others and has been doing custom speaker systems for good few decades. I believe the results should be very interesting. Should be quite reasonably priced too.
 
Nothing as of yet. It's still in the design phase. Should have some designs in the next couple weeks. Exterior will be somewhere between a boogie and marshall 4x12 slant front cab. I haven't even looked into coverings yet. If I try to match my current main boxes, I'll go for stained wood with a wicker grill cloth. Wicker is quite expensive so we'll see.

I've also been playing with the idea of a single stereo box. Not sure if the width is enough to get any separation. As it is, with 2 cabs, they would normally be right next to each other 50% of the time. The design guy is working it out.

So far we're looking at coaxial but with the possibility of a sub to fill out the low end on bass heavy IR's. Bass isn't very directional, so it shouldn't affect the sweet spot, It should also give the main speakers more power to play with and a bit more clarity.

Still working out whether to go active or passive. Either way, I have a few different custom amp builders that he knows of who are up to building some very responsive, flat power amps. If he goes passive, he'll make it to match with a readily available amp such as the QSC or ART.

Even with going full custom, it should be around the price of the readily available options. I don't have money to burn so bang for the buck is the order of the day. This is one of his specialties. His box designs get a lot more out of the speakers than you would think possible. I was quite impressed with the rig I used on the weekend that he designed. He knows his stuff.
 
Just spoke to the designer. Should be a ball tearin box. Looking at a 15" to lower the frequency response and give that nice "chunk" sound that I've always found missing with FRFR setups as opposed to a real quad. There'll be a coaxial 10" to handle the rest which should give that nice wide sweet spot. It's looking like there will be 2 separate power amps: 1 for the coaxial 10" and one for the 15". Active crossover on the 15". Passive on the coaxial. Power amps are based on a Phase Linear design, which I'm sure all audiophiles out there know all about. The speakers he's chosen are fairly pricey, but you get what you pay for. The boxes should be flat and responsive enough to use as studio monitors (obviously not near field). The flat response will be coming from the design of the box, not an EQ. The only EQ you may want to add, if any, will be to compensate for the room you play.

Just doing costing now to compare to currently available FR options. We'll see how it goes. All the components are very high performance, including his own power amp design. He's gonna get me a ballpark price before pulling out the soldering iron.
 
15" and 10" coax? What about frequencies obove 8 kHz? I don´t know any 10" coax chassis which can do this. If there will be no tweeter, the box will not be a FRFR. IMHO.
A 10 or 12" can do a fat bass (or "chunk"). My "Blue-Amp" is 2x10" and does 60 Hz. ;)
 
Gitarrenschlumpf said:
15" and 10" coax? What about frequencies obove 8 kHz? I don´t know any 10" coax chassis which can do this.
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Last I checked the common definition of a coaxial speaker is "....the one that contains two elements: a woofer, to reproduce the low notes, and a tweeter, mounted inside the woofer, for the highs."

To give you an example - If you look closely at the pictures of recently favored FBT 12ma (coaxial) you can clearly see that it has only one speaker and a vent hole...

Mik.
 
There's a tweeter on the 10" mounted on the same axis, thus the coaxial as mik said.

One of the big issues I've had with FRFR setups is that they never have the same low end power of a standard guitar quad. When you mount 4 12" speakers in a cabinet, the sound they produce together is not the same as if you had 4 separately mounted 12" speakers. If you were to run the same signal through both setups, the quad would have much more bass in it than the 4 separate speakers.

As I said earlier, I am yet to find an FRFR that reproduces this to my satisfaction (without adding a separate sub). I was looking for something that would, and would look like a standard guitar cabinet. With a 15" and the custom power amp, low end power is not going to be an issue.

When you add the sub and crossover, you take a lot of load off the 10" allowing it to use it's energy keeping the mids clean and clear. It also broadens the frequency response of the whole cabinet. 15's can be a bit on the heavy side, but weight doesn't bother me....within reason. It shouldn't be much different than a standard quad.
 
Looking forward to seeing more about this option.

Is this a one-off, custom job the designer is doing for you, alone? Or is the designer planning to make this generally available to the public?
 
Lately I've recently become interested in running my guitar cabs FRFR. (stealth FRFR)

My first try was a coaxial setup with a passive crossover.

Eminence Beta-12CX 12" Coaxial Driver, Eminence APT-50 1" exit Super Tweeter, and 3.5 kHz passive crossover.

Turns out to be an affordable and pretty good sounding setup. I say pretty good because the highs and lows are great, but there is some congestion, lack of detail, in the middle.

My next attempt will also be a coaxial setup using the same low-freq. driver, but with a high-freq. driver that I can cross over lower. Specifically, the Emminence PSD 2002 with a recommended crossover @ 1.2kHz should be able to reproduce the midrange more convincingly than the woofer.

Also, to add flexibility for experimenting, I'm getting an Ashly Audio XR-1001 electronic crossover. That will give me the ability to match levels between drivers and adjust crossover freq. on the fly.

After that, I'm thinking of trying an active setup where a HF compression driver will be mounted in a 12" waveguide in its own 1x12 guitar cab and crossed over perhaps as low as 900Hz, on top of another 1x12 guitar cab loaded with a LF driver.

I might be trying to re-invent the wheel, but it's really fun to experience and experiment with different setups.
 
It's just for me, but I told him I posted in this forum and others might be interested. I can't see him saying no to a sale if you were interested. As I posted before, he's doing costing at the moment. He's trying to see if he can build it for around the same price as currently available options. Judging by the component list, it's gonna be close. It's all premium stuff. The good thing is that it's not just premium for the sake of it, it's actually matched to give a flat response. Lets hope the numbers work. If it's too much, I might be tempted to get it anyway. My wife would not be pleased. Oh well. Gear was always my first love....just kidding....sort of. ;)

goodwill559 said:
I might be trying to re-invent the wheel, but it's really fun to experience and experiment with different setups.
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It's been a few thousand years. The wheel's due for an upgrade. Go for it. It definitely sounds fun. :) If no one ever experimented there'd be no AFX. You never know...you might run across some secret mojo no one else has discovered. Wouldn't be a first.
 
This is Just a thought but a vertical 212 or 10/15 combo version (like Mesa) would be kind of cool as well. Cut his cost down a tad and if you want that wide stereo thing going on, get a pair.
 
I had the same thought, but the 15" needed the extra air space. I gave the designer a few different ideas and he basically chose what he reckoned would be the best to produce what I was looking for sonically. We'll see how the costing goes. He's working on best case scenario, but he'll scrap the design and try something else if it's crazy expensive. He's all about bang for buck.

I'll go for a pair regardless of the aesthetic design. I might even use them for studio room monitors (not near field). The box design will be flat and the power amp is designed after one of the most sought after studio power amps ever made. I doubt there's anyone who has had a Phase Linear and sold it that hasn't kicked themselves long and hard afterward.
 
bump

This isn't dead. I ran out of money and had to put it on hold. I've just put it back in motion and got some designs. All the calculations and sims are showing a pretty flat response from 35Hz to 40K. I wanted it to be able to handle bass, synths and the like as I run a VG-99 for COSM guitars and also do bass gigs. SPL should smash any standard guitar quad box. It's not cheap, but it's not expensive either. There's been a few changes, but nothing drastic. It's now a 12" coax and active crossovers across the board. Aesthetically it's going to be a slant front box with a black covering that's way more durable than tolex. I'm probably going to go with a black metal mesh grill with sonically neutral foam underneath. It should look very clean and neat. It'll probably be a month or so to completion with the build and tuning the cab. It's not for those looking for the most compact rig as it will require 2 power amps (the horn will be internally amped) and a crossover in your rack, but the sound quality should be something else. One major plus is if you go stereo, you end up with a very high quality PA. I'm still deciding on the second power amp. The first will be my SLA-2 for the mids.
 
huh...interesting thread. About my only complaint on the AFX with FR is the look...you just can't beat how cool a half stack or full stack looks on stage...hope to see pics and hear more about this quad box FR
 
archangel said:
huh...interesting thread. About my only complaint on the AFX with FR is the look...you just can't beat how cool a half stack or full stack looks on stage...hope to see pics and hear more about this quad box FR
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If you have to have that "rock and roll look," there's nothing saying that you can't park some empty 4x12 cab shells onstage, while you run your Axe-Fx direct.

After all, when Geddy Lee started going direct, he had some chicken-rotisseries placed on his backline.... Notice the mic placement :lol:

Geddy_Lee_Chickens.jpg
 
:lol: is that the one where he has a Washer and Dryer with a load of clothes running up their as well? crazy effer.
 
xrist04 said:
He had the washers on earlier tours, before upgrading to the chicken ovens...
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The washers sounded warmer and more organic to me. The chicken rotisseries are brittle and harsh-sounding. Newer technology isn't always better. :eek:
 
Jay Mitchell said:
xrist04 said:
He had the washers on earlier tours, before upgrading to the chicken ovens...
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The washers sounded warmer and more organic to me. The chicken rotisseries are brittle and harsh-sounding. Newer technology isn't always better. :eek:
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Don't blame the rotisseries. Geddy stopped using the Monster speaker and power leads. That's where all that tone came from. ;) :roll:
 
well its all funny and everything...and I get the FRFR thing as I use one...but as a tribute band for AC/DC (www.kcdcrocks.com) it'd be right as the rain to have a quad box or full stack look while still running FRFR on stage and to FOH.
 
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