FRFR/cabs - FreeField vs Tilt/floor

Chewie5150

Fractal Fanatic
What inspired me to make this thread was my experience at the guitar store yesterday. For the first time in a long time I plugged into an amp head/cab. It was an EVH 5150III EL34 50 watt into a Mesa horizontal 212 closed back cab. Naturally there was some serious thump/tight bass response. When I got home and playing through my Atomic CLRS that I've had for years (and set up on poles in a FF eq setting) it occurred to me how much I miss that low end thump. I suppose this is the whole Amp in the room unicorn talked about so much on the forum. My CLR's sound great and are flat response but I've largely been listening to them at ear level. Like a 57 mic pointed near /off axis to the cone all this time. My space isnt' optimal for putting the monitors on the floor so starting to rethink my whole system now...

Not sure i want to ditch the CLRS as they act as my monitors for my keyboard and I even use for mixing. My one thought was having 1 or 2 of my Clrs on the floor ( much prefer stereo for the ear candy) but again i'd have to rethink my entire space/setup. Then for mixing purposes get some yamaha hs7/8's or adam ax5/7's on the desktop.

or

Keep the CLRS how they are and add another Matrix/Friedman style active cab (to get that more 'traditional' guitar cab feel) that stays on the floor. Almost like a W/D/W setup. thankfully the Axe III has many outputs.

Playing through an amp/cab has messed with my paradigm again. Throw me a bone or two and tell me I'm not going crazy
 
Nope...you are not crazy. Only thing I've found that has that "thump"...that visceral amp feel when using IRs is the f12-x200. Closest thing to an AITR feel and response I've used.
 
I had a near existential crisis after leaving the guitar store thinking about buying a guitar amp and rethinking modellers. Heresy I know! Then came to my senses and it has nothing to do with the Axe Fx. Its amazing. Its the sound reinforcement method.
 
I had a near existential crisis after leaving the guitar store thinking about buying a guitar amp and rethinking modellers. Heresy I know! Then came to my senses and it has nothing to do with the Axe Fx. Its amazing. Its the sound reinforcement method.
Yeah....it really is amazing.

There's a LOT in just the pure volume and the way your speaker(s) react by themselves and how they interact with the room.

Any way you turn down down (attenuator, quieter cab, master volume, modeling rig) is going to have huge implications for the sound. And any way you listen other than a backline'd cab is going to change at least as much, though different things.

An FRFR or Studio monitor with a good IR on the floor behind you turned up to 110dB (assuming the speaker can do it without distorting) is closer than any amp purist wants to admit. But, it also kind of defeats one of the significant purposes of going direct or modeling.

Turning down the world's best guitar cab(tm) though any method....will incur very similar trade-offs.

You can't beat physics. You have to figure out how to get what you want and balance that with the trade-offs you're wiling to accept...which is a much better situation, overall, than the only trade off being hearing damage in pursuit of tone. At least, I think it is.
 
What inspired me to make this thread was my experience at the guitar store yesterday. For the first time in a long time I plugged into an amp head/cab. It was an EVH 5150III EL34 50 watt into a Mesa horizontal 212 closed back cab. Naturally there was some serious thump/tight bass response. When I got home and playing through my Atomic CLRS that I've had for years (and set up on poles in a FF eq setting) it occurred to me how much I miss that low end thump. I suppose this is the whole Amp in the room unicorn talked about so much on the forum. My CLR's sound great and are flat response but I've largely been listening to them at ear level. Like a 57 mic pointed near /off axis to the cone all this time. My space isnt' optimal for putting the monitors on the floor so starting to rethink my whole system now...

Not sure i want to ditch the CLRS as they act as my monitors for my keyboard and I even use for mixing. My one thought was having 1 or 2 of my Clrs on the floor ( much prefer stereo for the ear candy) but again i'd have to rethink my entire space/setup. Then for mixing purposes get some yamaha hs7/8's or adam ax5/7's on the desktop.

or

Keep the CLRS how they are and add another Matrix/Friedman style active cab (to get that more 'traditional' guitar cab feel) that stays on the floor. Almost like a W/D/W setup. thankfully the Axe III has many outputs.

Playing through an amp/cab has messed with my paradigm again. Throw me a bone or two and tell me I'm not going crazy
This is one of the reasons I prefer a monitor that is not pointing to me head/ears. In comparison with my Amp and 4x12 cab, I have no issues with lack of thump etc.
But yeah, finding the right monitor etc. can be a long journey.
 
I prefer my clr on pole because it doesn't boost the bass like the coupling between floor/walls. Being "ear" level helps me keep the volume down as well. Back in my 4x12 stack days, I would only use the top cab for the same reasons.
 
I have my CLR's on poles and have been tweaking some of my go to high gain presets to allow for more bass response. The CLR's are capable of some thump; over time I think I've just dialed so much low end and lost that frame of reference to the real world counterparts. Still considering getting a Matrix/Friedman style cab to couple along with the CLR's
 
Started doing a little digging around here in the forum and found that thread on one of Cliff's tricks with Filter and GEQ in lieu of a cab. There was another idea in there about just using a filter block in parallel with cab block to add some oomph/low end. I tried it and it does add a bit of that guitar cab like response. I was wrong about my CLR's they don't lack that low end thump if you dial it in your preset
 
Started doing a little digging around here in the forum and found that thread on one of Cliff's tricks with Filter and GEQ in lieu of a cab. There was another idea in there about just using a filter block in parallel with cab block to add some oomph/low end. I tried it and it does add a bit of that guitar cab like response. I was wrong about my CLR's they don't lack that low end thump if you dial it in your preset
good to hear; is it enough to prevent you from buying an amp & cab to compliment your clrs?
 
good to hear; is it enough to prevent you from buying an amp & cab to compliment your clrs?
For now I'd say yes. I overlooked these tips before but more than anything it's also about where you sit/stand in relation to your FRFR. I've been placing myself farther away (so lot depends on your space) and more off axis to the monitors. It feels and sounds more like that 'amp in the room'. I think down the road I may experiment with a FRFR cab (to supplement) but that pressing need is gone
 
Give it a try. I do something similar when playing at home. Like Chewie5150 mentioned, run it in parallel with the cab block and adjust the frequency to taste:
<snip>
Do you (or anyone) have a link to where this was first discussed? I think I've seen allusions to a thread about it but not a link.

What is this supposed to accomplish...just a thump? Have you found it different from just a bass boost after (or in) the cab block?
 
Opinion warning! No FRFR cabinet is ever going to respond like an amp in the room. If one is interested in playing a real amp and cab and having that feeling, do that. Modeling took away all the hassle of miking a cabinet in a separate room so you can tweak a great guitar sound for a studio mix. For that use FRFR is fantastic. Playing live the PA is more FRFR than a guitar cabinet and what the audience should be hearing rather than your blazing loud 4x12 guitar cabinet.

Is it fun to play through FRFR? Not as much as a real guitar cabinet rattling you ballz to the point you cant wait for a break to hit the head.

I went through CLR Xitone Friedman and some other off brands rabbit hole trying to compete with my band mates tube amp and 4x12. It was a complete lost battle. For that live setup I wound up buying the same head as his and running a 2x12 dry then Ran the Axe FX stereo thru 4 PA speakers, two for me on stage and one on either side of the PA as the bass player ran sound and used the front mix for his in ears.

To me the CLR is a great FRFR speaker. Never could get a good to me bass feel out of that speaker. Friedman ASM-12's had tons of low end but doesn't cut as much as the CLR but fun as hell to play thru.

If you have to have that amp in the room feel run a real guitar cab.

Personally I like to hear the guitar as it is in a good cd mix. Ive given up on how it feels, If I have to feel it I have a bass shaker board for that. I'm going in ears and never looking back.
 
What is this supposed to accomplish...just a thump? Have you found it different from just a bass boost after (or in) the cab block?
For me, it adds a little bit of (depends on how much you add) thump to what’s coming out of my monitor to simulate moving a little air. Using a filter in parallel allows my live/studio tone to stay intact when I enable the filter while playing at home.

You’re exciting frequencies that create “thump.” A very narrow band.
 
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