Fractal vs. pedals Hmmmm...wanna weigh in?

Another variation of 'tubes vs digital' argument. It won't end well.


Given its just going to end up with random strangers angrily mashing at their keyboards and not actual rioting in the streets, nor loss of life or property, I think its a pretty acceptable ending in the bigger picture of things.

Besides, most people who participate in these type of threads actually love it lol. Arguing on the internet about silly first world problems, such as if a $2500 effects processor or a $2500 amp or pedal board is "better" is a rather interesting hobby....
 
If the Axe doesn't have a present flanger effect for the model you want, then your out of luck I guess. There is a pretty good selection of analog, digital etc flanger models. Certainly can't expect it to model each and every flanger on the market (though I will say that given we have over 200 amp models now I for one wouldn't mind seeing some attention being paid to the effects now)

I think the mentality of being so discriminating that one needs a particular model of effect, yet not wanting to rely on those same finely tuned ears to custom tailor an effect with all the controls in the Axe is at odds with itself.

Its kind of like guys who claim things like " I don't want an Axe because I hate tweaking" yet then spend full days doing nothing but swapping out tubes, messing with amp bias etc chasing nearly imperceptible tonal changes. Its like hello!, you just spent all afternoon tweaking your amp!

I totally get there are some guys who just want to play guitar. A flanger is a flanger to them, and they probably could care less if its a $50 Boss BF-2 or a $400 A/DA, its just something they step on to make the whoosy sound during a songs intro. More power them.

But, at the same time, if there are guys who have 10 different flangers in their collection and are always swapping out their boards in order to achieve the slight tonal changes they appreciate, why would they not welcome even more tone shaping options ?

Just seems odd to be that some folks can be so anal obsessive about every little aspect of their tone, yet at the same time recoil in horror at the thought of more than one knob.

Yes, those picky producers who want to work on SSL, Lexicon 480L, AMS etc. Why don't they just use any old studio and use their ears :)
You are talking about in some cases people who have relied on the same gear for years and know how to get their sound, their way. When they can't find something like an ADA Flanger in the menu, they lose interest. In a good studio, time is money.
The people that defend parts of the axe that could be better are the first ones fawning over the new feature when it's been implemented as requested......
I don't mind putting the hours in to get my sounds. I have been using Bradshaw systems since 1988 and owned them since 1991. Does not mean that if there was an easier way, it would not be welcome.
A lot of guitarists I know expect to see an exact Marshall layout when they dial a Marshall into the Axe. What is wrong with that? Same with all the amps and effects. If it was implemented, more people would be onboard.
 
Yes, those picky producers who want to work on SSL, Lexicon 480L, AMS etc. Why don't they just use any old studio and use their ears :)
You are talking about in some cases people who have relied on the same gear for years and know how to get their sound, their way. When they can't find something like an ADA Flanger in the menu, they lose interest. In a good studio, time is money.
The people that defend parts of the axe that could be better are the first ones fawning over the new feature when it's been implemented as requested......
I don't mind putting the hours in to get my sounds. I have been using Bradshaw systems since 1988 and owned them since 1991. Does not mean that if there was an easier way, it would not be welcome.
A lot of guitarists I know expect to see an exact Marshall layout when they dial a Marshall into the Axe. What is wrong with that? Same with all the amps and effects. If it was implemented, more people would be onboard.


If they have something they like, why change it ?

Is someone from Fractal going around like the Grinch and stealing people's loved pedals and replacing them with a XL+ ?

Its simple, embrace change and the adaptation it sometimes requires, or don't; stick with what you have.

Redesigning the whole interface just to please some stubborn guitarist who only will buy one if it exactly matches the layout of his current rig ?

Is there a worldwide shortage of tube amps and analog pedals I don't know ? Does the Fractal community need to help take in their poor equipment less guitar players who no longer can play what they like ? We need sympathize with their loss of their belonged hardware and do everything we can to make them feel as comfortable as possible in the digital realm ?

If a buddy of mine says he likes his pedals, I say more power to him, here is a box of 9v's you can have because I don't need them anymore. Then we go grab a beer.
 
If they have something they like, why change it ?

Is someone from Fractal going around like the Grinch and stealing people's loved pedals and replacing them with a XL+ ?

Its simple, embrace change and the adaptation it sometimes requires, or don't; stick with what you have.

Redesigning the whole interface just to please some stubborn guitarist who only will buy one if it exactly matches the layout of his current rig ?

Is there a worldwide shortage of tube amps and analog pedals I don't know ? Does the Fractal community need to help take in their poor equipment less guitar players who no longer can play what they like ? We need sympathize with their loss of their belonged hardware and do everything we can to make them feel as comfortable as possible in the digital realm ?

If a buddy of mine says he likes his pedals, I say more power to him, here is a box of 9v's you can have because I don't need them anymore. Then we go grab a beer.


That's all good. Other people have opinions too. I don't have to agree with you and you don't have to agree with me.
I can deal with my Axe. There are things that could be better but it is what it is at the moment and I can more than live with it because it's a very convenient unit for me, especially for gigs. There is nothing else that does what it does. Not even close. Does not mean there is no room for future improvements :)
 
Yes, those picky producers who want to work on SSL, Lexicon 480L, AMS etc. Why don't they just use any old studio and use their ears :)
You are talking about in some cases people who have relied on the same gear for years and know how to get their sound, their way. When they can't find something like an ADA Flanger in the menu, they lose interest. In a good studio, time is money.
The people that defend parts of the axe that could be better are the first ones fawning over the new feature when it's been implemented as requested......
I don't mind putting the hours in to get my sounds. I have been using Bradshaw systems since 1988 and owned them since 1991. Does not mean that if there was an easier way, it would not be welcome.
A lot of guitarists I know expect to see an exact Marshall layout when they dial a Marshall into the Axe. What is wrong with that? Same with all the amps and effects. If it was implemented, more people would be onboard.

I definitely think there is a segment of the music community, producers, artists, musicians, that work better from the visual / creative / left brain than the scientific / engineering right brain.

The Fractal is definitely an engineering marvel and amazing.

I've always thought, and commented at various times, that a more visual / real hardware looking, AxeEdit would bridge the gap and not really have an impact on the front panel of the Fractal.

Something that looks like the UAD or Waves plugins with hardware / amp fronts / speaker fronts / meters etc.

Of course something like that costs $$ so all this is armchair CEO'ing :)

I currently own two Fractals and an MFC so I must like something about them :)
 
I'm trying to think of a nice way to say this...

A lot of the people posting in favor of pedals AND posting pics of (presumably) their boards... there's so many tone-thief stompboxes in those pics that I wouldn't use them if they were free.

I don't think I need to say which camp I'm in, but I will say this for pedals: they're fun in a visual customization sort of way. What other electronic device is it socially acceptable to hand paint over? Anyone tried painting around the rim of their flat screen? How about your toaster? No, I meant your *actual* toaster. What did your wife think of your handy work?

I like to play the pedal used market, buy stuff at a good deal, recreate it in the AxeFx, and sell it on to the next guy typically for what I put into it. It helps pass the time, and I get to have a valid opinion on what stuff sounds like.
Disclaimer: I haven't done that in a while (FW12 or 13 maybe?), but I've got an Empress Tape Delay, Strymon Bluesky, and Skreddy P19 inbound. I'll post what I come up with once I get my flip :D
 
Is ignorance really bliss? (from the replies on the Facebook page)

Christian Arial Traditional pedal board because you can swap out pieces to get exactly what you want--infinitely customizable.
 
This got me thinking of how I might go about trying to recreate the plate shimmer from the Strymon Bluesky... I'm thinking of using the send/return blocks to feed the reverb'd signal back through a +1 8va pitch block, then back into the reverb - which is, IIRC, essentially what happens to the signal when using the "shimmer plate" setting on the Strymon unit.

This creates an obvious feedback loop.

Any ideas on how to tame this? I'm not in front of my AxeFx at the moment and won't be able to give this a try for a day or two, but I'm thinking simple attenuation at the pitch block should do the trick...?

Also, I'm trying to play nice with LTI and have the pitch block before the cab block; however, I'm sure the delay & reverb could be arranged in essentially the same fashion but after the cab block for those with extreme cases of OCD (like me).

*Ignore the delay, enhancer, and looper blocks. Those are just somewhere in all of my presets.


EDIT: Dummy mistake. This layout would only function with the reverb set to 100% wet, otherwise dry signal gets fed into the pitch block.

If it were in parallel, it could be 100% wet and dialed back via level reduction. Here's take 2, also removed extraneous blocks for simplicity...

 
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Even if you leave out the fact that the AMP modeling is by far the best there is. The effect quality of the Axe FX is way better than most pedals. And to have it all in one neat little 2 space rack is amazing.
 
There's no denying it. If you want specific sounds, you have to do specific things to get them. The fact is the modulation and delay parameters are very broad, and a lot of pedals are valued because they have specific sounds that are actually pretty narrow! So in order to make your axe-fx II effects sound like particular effects pedals, you have to do some research.

The amazing thing is... GOOGLE! I have spent the last couple of weeks looking at specifications for various delays, choruses, flangers, etc. and I can say this has helped me tremendously in getting more ball-park settings for my effects - ESPECIALLY on chorus and flange.

But people are quick to take sides and put feet down. Oh well.
 
This got me thinking of how I might go about trying to recreate the plate shimmer from the Strymon Bluesky... I'm thinking of using the send/return blocks to feed the reverb'd signal back through a +1 8va pitch block, then back into the reverb - which is, IIRC, essentially what happens to the signal when using the "shimmer plate" setting on the Strymon unit.

This creates an obvious feedback loop.

Any ideas on how to tame this? I'm not in front of my AxeFx at the moment and won't be able to give this a try for a day or two, but I'm thinking simple attenuation at the pitch block should do the trick...?

Also, I'm trying to play nice with LTI and have the pitch block before the cab block; however, I'm sure the delay & reverb could be arranged in essentially the same fashion but after the cab block for those with extreme cases of OCD (like me).

*Ignore the delay, enhancer, and looper blocks. Those are just somewhere in all of my presets.


EDIT: Dummy mistake. This layout would only function with the reverb set to 100% wet, otherwise dry signal gets fed into the pitch block.

If it were in parallel, it could be 100% wet and dialed back via level reduction. Here's take 2, also removed extraneous blocks for simplicity...

Interesting concept. Can you post a sound clip?


I haven't used SND and RTN much so far... only to allow a second seperate chain when combined with FXL. I think I should start using them in my grids.
 
"I don't want an Axe because I hate tweaking" yet then spend full days doing nothing but swapping out tubes, messing with amp bias etc chasing nearly imperceptible tonal changes. Its like hello!, you just spent all afternoon tweaking your amp!

Nailed it. Those people are making the wrong point. It's not that they don't like tweaking. It's that they are biased against digital and don't want to admit they have no real reason to be.
 
Nailed it. Those people are making the wrong point. It's not that they don't like tweaking. It's that they are biased against digital and don't want to admit they have no real reason to be.
"Digital" in audio has about the same image problem as "chemical" in food.

Lots of chemical food products are actually better and healthier than their natural counterparts (due to pesticides, antibiotics and heavy-metal* poisoned soils). Yet people scream for "bio" more than ever.


Do you know what real the difference between "bio" vegetables and normal vegetables is? "Bio" vegetables are fertilized with mineralic fertilizers instead of chemical fertilizers. Do you know what is also by far more healthy for both environment and the human body? I give you a hint: it's not the phosphate fertilizers used for "bio" grains...


*chucka-chucka.
 
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Interesting concept. Can you post a sound clip?


I haven't used SND and RTN much so far... only to allow a second seperate chain when combined with FXL. I think I should start using them in my grids.

I don't have one at the moment. This diagram is just theoretical as of now while I work it out in my head. Hopefully I'll have time to do some trial runs with it tonight.

My biggest concern as of now is that each time a given segment of signal is repeated through the feedback loop (reverb->send->return->pitch->back to reverb) a percentage of the signal - based on wet % in pitch block - will raise another 8va... which could be cool... or painfully shrill.

Assuming the reverb block in parallel and set to 100% wet (-"x"dB to function for all intensive purposes as a mix control), and even assuming up to 100% wet inside the pitch block (although my hunch is a moderately high wet value, say 75% or so, but not 100% will give the most natural/smooth results... just a guess), then drastic level attenuation inside the pitch block *should* prevent runaway self oscillation. -dB values inside the pitch block would just be reduced far more than normal for a similar end result as normal use at a higher level setting.

Let's say the original dry signal hits the reverb block for the first time at -6dB, then say another -12dB (randomly picking a value here) in the pitch block. That original signal is now -18dB - albeit with more harmonic content - than the first time it hit the reverb block, and some diffusion has presumably already occurred.

The two main variables I'm looking to control are trail length and high end content. My best guess at this point is that a balance of reduction to level and mix values within the pitch block is going to be the key to making this happen.

...or you could just use Simeon's multidelay shimmer.

I'll work on getting some clips ASAP.

EDIT: I'm also thinking the predelay in the reverb block should be set to a near-zero value and the delays within the pitch block should be used to control predelay. Or, if desired tempo is a known, set predelay in the reverb block to, say, half of the desired time (i.e., 120BPM, want 1/8th note predelay, so 250ms/2=125ms-1/16th note value) and make up the other half in the pitch block... this way predelay is not entirely eliminated from the original dry signal, but you're also not allowing the pitch block to oscillate as fast as it can run through the reverb block's predelay AND you have some level of separate control over the rate at which the signal regenerates through the pitch block.

That part is going to take a bit of trial and error I think. I don't know where yet, but my gut tells me there's a math fallacy somewhere in that last paragraph. I think it's with the rates in the pitch block delays, as they and the reverb block's predelay are only cumulative the first time a signal runs through the cycle... no, that's not right... reverb block predelay MUST be the determining factor for dry signal predelay, but the 8va affected signal would by default be double the value of the reverb block's predelay (pitch gets shifted before hitting the reverb block the 2nd time) + whatever delay values are set within the pitch block.
 
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Bottom line, for me: I like the AFX. I also like pedals. Strengths and weaknesses on both sides. Choose according to need.

Exactly. There is no black and white. There are certain sounds that specific pedals have that the Axe can't do. The pedal market had some sort of revival the last I think the last few years with some great new experimental and very good sounding pedals coming out lately. But with the Axe on the other hand you can do complicated routing and experiments that you can never do with pedals unless you have a gigantic pedal board and a complicated switching system. Love them both and that's why I always use three or four pedals along my Axe fx.
 
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Exactly. There is no black and white. There are certain sounds that specific pedals have that the Axe can't do YET. The pedal market had some sort of revival the last I think the last few years with some great new experimental and very good sounding pedals coming out lately. But with the Axe on the other hand you can do complicated routing and experiments that you can never do with pedals unless you have a gigantic pedal board and a complicated switching system. Love them both and that's why I always use three or four pedals along my Axe fx.

fix'd ;)
 
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