Fractal units not cutting thru vs regular amps in rehersal

Chiguete

Experienced
So here is something that crossed my mind the other day in rehersal: do Fractal units (and other modelling units) not cutting thru in a band rehersal vs amps that are not mic'd?

Ok for a live scenario where everyone has a mic on their cab then if you are not cutting thru it must be an EQ problem but when you are in a small rehersing room with other band mates that have regular amps maybe the problem is that when using IR's you are not just simulating the cabs and speakers but also a mics?

Is it recommended to not low cut or high cut when going in to a rehersal studio that other people use regular amps?

Tell me your comments from your experience since this is the first time I've been in a rehersal studio after owning a Fractal unit.
 
maybe I'm wrong but I would think the first question to ask is how are you monitoring yourself vs how are they monitoring? are they using an amp to monitor and are you just using the pa monitors? I find it always best to have a personal monitor for yourself that you can control only your volume pointed at you whether it be a traditional amp a flat freq monitor or in ears. but maybe that isn't what you are referring to.
 
I was going thru and older model Matrix amplified cab and like I said everyone else was only using their amps and no monitors since it was just and old school rehearsing scenario that only the vocals had a microphone.
 
I'm hardly a grizzled veteran with the AX8, but contrary to what you're asking in your o.p. I've found the best results in rehearsal situations by narrowing the low and high cut on the cab block. Somewhere around 150 on the low and 4500 on the high are where I start - then adjust to taste.

Real guitar speakers have a fairly narrow frequency range, so opening it up would only mean you're using power to amplify frequencies that the other guys aren't even producing. Focus on your mids. Those are what cut through.

If you still don't like your results, run your AX8 through a power amp and real guitar cab. That should get it done.
 
I was going thru and older model Matrix amplified cab and like I said everyone else was only using their amps and no monitors since it was just and old school rehearsing scenario that only the vocals had a microphone.

Did you disable the cab block, as you were playing through a cab?
 
There was a thread on TGP that had me thinking about this: chasing after recorded sounds that don't end up working well in band contexts. My thought relative to modelers in general was that they come from the "recorded sound" perspective, but when placed next to acoustic drums and live bass cabs, that quality of sound doesn't "fit" the way that people are used to. In a sense, they have to make space for us (whether literally via dynamics and frequency space, or even just conceptually with where they expect to hear us). In other words, the rest of the world is kind of used to the cranked guitarist in the onstage mix.

My idea lately is that this has to do with the actual dynamic range produced at the speaker (FRFR, monitors, etc.) versus what comes out of a guitar amp. In terms of frequency spikes and attack transients, guitar amps seem to have more drastic peaks (nott just pure volume, but frequency peaks that a FFT analysis would display) that get leveled out or limited via FOH or recording compression. Modelers build that compression into the sound for a more narrow and focused overall tone that works great in a total mix, but are either too loud or drowned out onstage. So then modeler users have to ride the output volume more to sit in the mix as the band varies dynamics. Invariably with any groups I play with, what I think is going to be the gig level is pretty hot at the start but inevitably is on the lower end volume wise once things get going, and that's with some really sensitive and experienced musicians.

I think its akin to the whole keyboard vs. piano sounds that we have become so accustomed to. An actual piano has a greater dynamic range as an acoustic instrument than what we typically hear from keyboards. But band mixes have become accustomed to where they sit, and keyboard players are always riding volume pedals relative to the mix.

I'm thinking that the industry move to iem's and such might change all of that yet again, but that's a different topic.

joe
 
I'm hardly a grizzled veteran with the AX8, but contrary to what you're asking in your o.p. I've found the best results in rehearsal situations by narrowing the low and high cut on the cab block. Somewhere around 150 on the low and 4500 on the high are where I start - then adjust to taste.

Real guitar speakers have a fairly narrow frequency range, so opening it up would only mean you're using power to amplify frequencies that the other guys aren't even producing. Focus on your mids. Those are what cut through.

If you still don't like your results, run your AX8 through a power amp and real guitar cab. That should get it done.
Where you and the rest of the band going thru the P.A. or just using guitar amps without micing then?
 
i've never had any problems cutting through, maybe whatever speaker you're using just can't keep up.
 
I have recently added a Tele with P90's to my arsenal and now I am going through the process of selecting a patch to use with it. I think I've settled on the Dirty Shirley and my experience with ANY patch / guitar set up is that I have to play with the EQ a bit (either on the amp itself or with an EQ block) to get my guitar in my bands "mix" as needed. But I don't think that's unique to any amp. I might even argue that FAS products give you MORE tools to accomplish that. But, you have to experiment and invest the time into it.
 
If you're not cutting through the mix, you need more mids and less bass/treble.

The most frequent cause of not cutting through is dialing in your tone at low volume and expecting that to translate to gig levels. It doesn't.
 
If you're not cutting through the mix, you need more mids and less bass/treble.

The most frequent cause of not cutting through is dialing in your tone at low volume and expecting that to translate to gig levels. It doesn't.

This is VERY important.
 
Rex and Richb are spot on. The reason you aren't cutting through is because your volume is spread over the whole frequency spectrum. For a quick way to hear the difference, just use the global EQ and completely cut everything below 100 HZ and anything over say, 9000 to 12000

You should hear a difference. Then it's better to do this preset by preset.
 
Rex and Richb are spot on. The reason you aren't cutting through is because your volume is spread over the whole frequency spectrum. For a quick way to hear the difference, just use the global EQ and completely cut everything below 100 HZ and anything over say, 9000 to 12000

You should hear a difference. Then it's better to do this preset by preset.
The cab block has high and low filters already... I would imagine that the mix that will come from the band in the concert will be good since all other amps will be mic'd too but when going next to a regular amp thats what I'm having problems now.
 
i've never had any problems cutting through, maybe whatever speaker you're using just can't keep up.
Are you talking just as the final mix coming from the P.A. in a gig or playing next to a friend that has a regular amp at home or in a rehersal studio without anything mic'd?
 
Real guitar speakers have a fairly narrow frequency range, so opening it up would only mean you're using power to amplify frequencies that the other guys aren't even producing. Focus on your mids. Those are what cut through.
I get this but if you capture the response of a speaker I would asume that you get the natural peaks and drops (overall freq response) that comes from that speaker no?
 
I get this but if you capture the response of a speaker I would asume that you get the natural peaks and drops (overall freq response) that comes from that speaker no?

No. The near-field response of a speaker is very different than the far-field response.
 
I've not had any problems cutting thru and being heard. I played a show last weekend and people were saying my AX8 set up was better than the amps they heard!

If you're not cutting through the mix, you need more mids and less bass/treble
And this can't be quoted enough!!!
 
For a good example of tones that cut through and sit in the mix well but might not sound "hi fi" by themselves, check out @Moke 's presets. He is a bit of a master at this. Grab one of them and compare to what you are doing.
 
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