Fractal Audio Systems - Javier Reyes "Luz y Cielo" - EMG - Ibanez Guitars

i also agree on the slightly clunky tone. i think the trick is to use thinner strings and a longer scale length. ...

Actually, the trick is to find the right combination of scale length and string mass.

Yes, a longer neck scale length would help, but if you put thinner strings on it, you'd defeat the purpose and be right back where you are.

Because tuned to a given pitch, the string-mass/scale-length/string-tension relationship is like a three-legged stool.

The clunky tone comes from a string's being too loose in relation to its mass and scale length. So to eliminate it, you have to increase one or more of the three elements. Increasing the tension without changing string thickness or neck length simply means tuning it to a higher pitch; increasing the neck length without changing the tuning or string gauge results in greater string tension (and less clunkiness); increasing the string guage without changing the scale length (while tuning to the same pitch) would also mean increased string tension (and less clunkiness).

Of course, there's a point at which one of the elements becomes out of proportion to the others, and then it just sounds dead. Most standard 8-string sets come with an 0.74 on the bottom. If that's too clunky, an .080 or an 0.85 might sound better, but a .100 might be too thick to vibrate much at that scale length (hence the deadness)...
 
Congratulations! What brand/model did you get?

I was going to buy an Ibanez, but none came up for sale at the right time in the UK, I just missed a prestige one on ebay
Then a Rust Cooley USA one was sold very cheap, and I just missed it. After lots of looking at new ones, I eventually found a used Schecter Damien Elite 8 for £300 (it has EMG 808s)

I think 8 strings intimidate a lot of players, and so the second-hand market is weak currently
 
The Damien Elite has a pretty short scale. But if I'm pretty sure that the guitar can handle thicker string guages.
The RG2228 on the other hand gets wacky if you put anything thicker than 0.10-0.74 string gauges.
I've been looking at the Schecter Blackjack SLS and Damien Platinum. Looks killer!
 
Last edited:
I have a RG2228, I absolutely hate the emg's...

All depends what you play, such a personal thing. Try an EQ pedal before you replace though, maybe a bass EQ pedal?
Do you like 85s and 89s? I have some 89s and like them, and so the 808s sound similar to me

I think the fact that a lot of 8 strong players aren't keen on EMGs creates a lot of bargains for people with my pickup preference - so I can't complain

Faroe Islands? Wow, that's remote - I assume there's no guitar shops there?
 
The Damien Elite has a pretty short scale. But if I'm pretty sure that the guitar can handle thicker string guages.
The RG2228 on the other hand gets wacky if you put anything thicker than 0.10-0.70 string gauges.
I've been looking at the Schecter Blackjack SLS and Damien Platinum. Looks killer!

Pretty much all my other guitars are USA or Japanese, and I was very very impressed with the quality of this one - definitely in the same quality range as those. My Luthier checked it yesterday, and agreed
Nice to see a company not intentionally creating poorer-quality sub-brand guitars in low-cost countries, but working to get a Pro-level product

I put 9-46 on the top 6 (which I use on everything), and then a 56 and 72 on the bottom 2, they sound fine
The nice guy I bought it from (about 20, living with his parents and doing a music degree with a lovely home studio and Jap Ibanezs - why couldn't I have arranged to have such affluent parents?) had a 65 or so on the bottom (I have a micrometer), and it was very floppy

I have some baritone acoustics (27, 29 and a 30 inch classical) and a 27 inch bari tele, so I had some ideas about strings:
My conclusion is that the 27 inch scales on my Yairi baritone and bari tele don't sound guitar-like if you drop the pitch from E-E to A-A or B-B. Using an intermediate gauge and going C#-C# or D-D feels and sounds better, however for the 29 inch pro-grade acoustic, the big baritone strings tuned down to A-A sound unusual, but still sound like a properly-driven spruce top
The longer strings bend a little easier, so 9-46 tuned to D-D or E-E on a 27 inch feel OK, D-D is about right. I suspect a 29 inch electric would start to feel less normal - as my acoustic 29 inch does
With the 8 string, it's nice to leave the top 6 more "normal", and get the bass from the 2 extra strings, but I know that the 26.5 inch scale is not ideal for the bass. Fan frets are the logical solution, or a different string material for the bass 2, e.g. rubbery things that do smooth bass - no use to metal guys though.

This 26.5 inch one was good enough for what I need, but as you know, the new Schecters are 28 inch, probably a good compromise for the metal players?
I'd happily go to 28 inches, but this one works for me at the minute
 
Actually, the trick is to find the right combination of scale length and string mass.

Yes, a longer neck scale length would help, but if you put thinner strings on it, you'd defeat the purpose and be right back where you are.

Because tuned to a given pitch, the string-mass/scale-length/string-tension relationship is like a three-legged stool.

The clunky tone comes from a string's being too loose in relation to its mass and scale length. So to eliminate it, you have to increase one or more of the three elements. Increasing the tension without changing string thickness or neck length simply means tuning it to a higher pitch; increasing the neck length without changing the tuning or string gauge results in greater string tension (and less clunkiness); increasing the string guage without changing the scale length (while tuning to the same pitch) would also mean increased string tension (and less clunkiness).

Of course, there's a point at which one of the elements becomes out of proportion to the others, and then it just sounds dead. Most standard 8-string sets come with an 0.74 on the bottom. If that's too clunky, an .080 or an 0.85 might sound better, but a .100 might be too thick to vibrate much at that scale length (hence the deadness)...

You are right - It's quite a large task to get it right, and there are so many companies and traditions that are not reaching the ideal, e.g. I got a nice solid-top tenor acoustic (standard scale length), standard set had CGDA = 32, 22, 14, 10
I never ever break strings, and with this guitar, it took 3 strings to get a top A string fitted without it breaking. Looking at the tension chart D'Addario Strings : Other Instruments : D'Addario J66 Tenor Guitar Strings,
You can see the top 2 are way tighter than the bottom 2.
Anyway, once past that, I found the instrument sounded very shrill and unbalanced, a very percussive, metallic honk from those top 2, and they felt wrong - too tight compared to the bottom 2.
I fitted 32, 22, 13,9, and it was better, and when I took it to my luthier, who had supplied it from the distributor, he recommended we tuned it down 2 semitones to A#, F, C, G. Now it sounds lovely - properly woody, the top is driven well and the guitar is so expressive. So why do people fit the tight CGDA set? Only advantage I can think if that it would have a louder mandolin-type tone when strummed with a pick unamplified in a folky session.

As I state in my other post - the baritones I have defy many people's expectations - there is a lot of confusion out there. I do have a 30 inch Aria/Esteve classical, an octave down (Contrabass string set). It sounds wrong to me, and I have a "Quintbass" set of strings ready to try.

My standard advice is - dropping the tuning too far destroys the tone and feel of the guitar (both electric and acoustic), and most baritone guitars do go too far. With standard setups, most 8 strings are closer.
I think - don't fit a 16-70 set on a normal length 6 string, or a 27 inch. It does work on 29 inches
for a 27 inch 6 strings, go up 1-2 string gauges, drop 2-3 semitones, or else it gets un-guitar-like

For an 8 string, those bottom 2 strings neatly isolate the problem, 27-28 inch is probably the right length - longer would spoil the top strings I think, unless you go fanfretting. I haven't tried a fanfret electric. I tried a Taylor one which was easier to play than I thought
 
Faroe Islands? Wow, that's remote - I assume there's no guitar shops there?

Hehe, You would think that there aren't but there actually is. One of the best in the world imo.
I'm good friends with the owner and this summer I'll be working there permanently.
We got some pretty good and rare stuff.
Fender, Gibson, G&L, Musicman, PRS, Ibanez, Schecter, Sandberg, Martin, Yamaha... You name it.
Also, all the limited and custom stuff comes our way too, so I've played some extremely rare Fenders and G&L's and some Gibson stuff as well.
I consider myself lucky. The owner of the shop also met (in other countries) Leo Fender himself, exchanged emails with Guthrie Govan (I'm jealous as hell)
He also has a luthier workshop and builds custom guitars called Bjarnastein.

About the EMG's. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of happy EMG players, and good for them. I'm a passive kinda guy and I'm struggling to get the tone I want on my RG2228. I'm thinking about swapping the pickups to Dimarzio's.
When I was younger I thought that 81-85's were THE pickups for me. As I got older I learned that I liked passives more.

A friend of mine has a Schecter Scorpion Baritone (Diamond Series) It's one of the best Baritones I've ever played on.
I'm amazed how good the Schecters are and I always recommend them to people who want a decent guitar for the money. If I had the money right now I'd buy one.

I have a Gibson Baritone Les Paul. I must say it's my favorite guitar. It features a 28" scale length and stays in tune like a boss. Sounds killer too for the music I play. The sustain is out of this world.

I'm currently building a Baritone Tele, Swamp ash body, Maple neck and rosewood fingerboard. 27.78" scale lenght. I have a build thread but no pictures yet, the neck and various other parts just arrived and the body is on it's way. If I like the guitar/wood combination, I have a plan about building a fanned fret 8 string with same wood combo.

Btw, thanks for the string gauge advice. I'll try it when I have the chance.
 
Last edited:
About the EMG's. Don't get me wrong, I know a lot of happy EMG players, and good for them. I'm a passive kinda guy and I'm struggling to get the tone I want on my RG2228. I'm thinking about swapping the pickups to Dimarzio's.

I'm currently building a Baritone Tele, Swamp ash body, Maple neck and rosewood fingerboard. 27.78" scale lenght. I have a build thread but no pictures yet, the neck and various other parts just arrived and the body is on it's way. If I like the guitar/wood combination, I have a plan about building a fanned fret 8 string with same wood combo.

Btw, thanks for the string gauge advice. I'll try it when I have the chance.

I never used to like actives much, had a strat with Livewires for years - good into DI, but my luthier got me into them (EMGs) more 2-3 years ago, mind you most of mine are still passives.
Actives are popular with a higher proportion of bassists I think, since they do the bottom end well.
I have 2 guitars set up with a DG-20 set (SAs & active EQ), and an LP copy with 89s. Now the 808s on Schecter - quite similar to the 89s.
Best thing to do is borrow a guitar with the pickups you like, or do as I do, buy a used guitar at a price you can sell at, to do an extended test. Working in a music shop should remove that problem for you though

For gritty rock, I understand the Bare Knuckles are the most popular now. I'd try those?

Mind you, if I wanted to argue with the mass of my fellow guitarists, it would be about how people buy many guitars, and change pickups many times (as I used to), without buying a matching selection of amps & cabs that do different sounds well
I think people should buy one amp for every 2 guitars they buy, since the amps are usually the limiting factor in most peoples' gear.
Some people buy £2k guitars, then run them into £500 amps and consider £2k amps as unnecessary

btw, I am not sure the neck pickup in my Bari tele is the best choice for the heavier gauges. I replaced it with an N3, but still not sure. I'd consider strat pickups there as an option, a very crisp one maybe. The other idea I have is a 28-29 inch baritone non-trem strat, but fit the full EMG active EQ for Bass kit (bass, treble, mid EQ, etc). I think that you need the kind of control a bass player demands on these lower voiced guitars. In fact - if an EQ pedal can help with your RG2228, adding active EQ to the EMG system could help too, and would be an easy mod. I'd personally try hard to not rip out an active system, I'd sell the guitar first, since I think you'd be spending money in a way that cannot be recovered easily

Cheers!
Tone
 
This thread turned very, very interesting! I too am experimenting with "Bari Tele" here, slapped an Allparts bari neck on a Tele and found a new deeper tone that way (still looking for the optimal bridge pickup). I settled with a regular .10 set tuned Eb-Eb after having tried bari sets, kind of like the sound better with thinner strings at higher tension (the longer scale makes bending possible with higher tension).

Speaking about eight stringed brands, has anyone tried an by Polish Ran Guitars? This fan fretted model keeps catching my eye: Ran Guitars Crusher FF8
 
You know, part of the reason I love being on this forum is how humbling it is. We all get a chance to share our talent with each other, trade chatter and tips. And then out of nowhere we watch Tosin or Javier and realize how much more potential there is with this instrument and processor that all brought us to this forum. Now I must go practice, I cant play 6 strings as well as they do 8 !!
 
Back
Top Bottom