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For those wishing for an Archon in your Axe

Which one is the real Archon?

  • Part 1

    Votes: 10 45.5%
  • Part 2

    Votes: 12 54.5%

  • Total voters
    22
  • Poll closed .

Sacha

Inspired
I (mostly accidentally) managed to match my Archon gain channel about 95%, just dialing by ear. I'm sure you could get it closer if you tweaked or tone matched.

Here's a clip, 1 part is the Axe, the other is the Archon DI'd through a Suhr Reactive Load, both into the same impulse and chain in my DAW:

- Any Guesses?

Enjoy!

PS the impulse is the Mesa V30 from the Ownhammer Heavy Hitters pack
 

Attachments

mr_fender

Fractal Fanatic
Part two has a tiny bit of honk to the midrange. Subtle difference. No idea which is which. I lean towards Part 1 solo'd, but Part 2 might actually work better in a mix. Good job matching them.
 

Sacha

Inspired
Thanks fella! It's the Mesa V30 straight up one, I think it was in the Summary folder of the Single cabs?
 

mikah912

Inspired
First off, great job matching them.

Choptones has an Archon matching pack with matches for an Archon used with a variety of mics, cabs and pedals.... but they want 50 Euros just for that, so....yeah.

I get Cliff's reasoning for not modeling it, but I don't think anybody would be opposed to an ear-tuned version. Heck, call it FAS Modern IV....then you don't need to issue the disclaimer that it wasn't modeled from the actual Archon schematic, which no one can acquire, apparently.

I'd love to see some new blood in the high gain category. Mesa Triple Crown, Rhodes, Fortin, Revv Generator, Randall..... there's plenty of fish in that sea for Cliff.
 

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
The hardest part of modeling an amp is getting the various controls to match the actual amp. If you don't care if the tone, drive, etc. controls behave the same it's much easier as we have software that learns the input EQ, output EQ and gain. The problem is then people go "the model doesn't sound the same as my amp if I turn the drive all the way up and bass all the way down".

So to accurately model the control behavior we need a schematic and the actual amp (as the schematics often don't indicate the pot tapers).

Truth is amps are more similar than people think. You can make almost any high gain amp sound like any other high gain amp with a few EQ tweaks which is basically what the designers do. For example a Bogner is basically a boosted Marshall with a different treble pot taper. Another popular new amp is basically just a JTM45 clone with a couple minor changes. In fact the schematic I got from the designer was a JTM45 schematic with markups. The scary thing I've learned is that a lot of these amp "designers" don't really even understand what they are doing. They don't have degrees in engineering and lack even basic circuit theory. They take existing designs and tinker with them changing circuit values. The basic topology of the amps are unchanged. So many of these new amps are nothing more than clones of old designs with some minor changes. Things you can do in the Axe-Fx with all the EQ options available.

There are only a handful of guys that really understand circuit theory and know what they're doing: Alan Phillips from Carol-Ann, Stevie Fryette, John Suhr, and several others. The vast majority are glorified technicians that are just making clones of existing designs with minor modifications.

A good example is the Marshall 18W. There are numerous clones and amps inspired by this design. The problem is that the original design is flawed. You can make that amp sound much better with some minor changes to the phase inverter (or grid stoppers) but none of these amps do that. They all use the same PI design which overdrives the snot out of the power tubes making the amp shift into Class-B operation resulting in fizz and crackling on the decay.
 

mikah912

Inspired
The hardest part of modeling an amp is getting the various controls to match the actual amp. If you don't care if the tone, drive, etc. controls behave the same it's much easier as we have software that learns the input EQ, output EQ and gain. The problem is then people go "the model doesn't sound the same as my amp if I turn the drive all the way up and bass all the way down".

So to accurately model the control behavior we need a schematic and the actual amp (as the schematics often don't indicate the pot tapers).

Truth is amps are more similar than people think. You can make almost any high gain amp sound like any other high gain amp with a few EQ tweaks which is basically what the designers do. For example a Bogner is basically a boosted Marshall with a different treble pot taper. Another popular new amp is basically just a JTM45 clone with a couple minor changes. In fact the schematic I got from the designer was a JTM45 schematic with markups. The scary thing I've learned is that a lot of these amp "designers" don't really even understand what they are doing. They don't have degrees in engineering and lack even basic circuit theory. They take existing designs and tinker with them changing circuit values. The basic topology of the amps are unchanged. So many of these new amps are nothing more than clones of old designs with some minor changes. Things you can do in the Axe-Fx with all the EQ options available.

There are only a handful of guys that really understand circuit theory and know what they're doing: Alan Phillips from Carol-Ann, Stevie Fryette, John Suhr, and several others. The vast majority are glorified technicians that are just making clones of existing designs with minor modifications.

A good example is the Marshall 18W. There are numerous clones and amps inspired by this design. The problem is that the original design is flawed. You can make that amp sound much better with some minor changes to the phase inverter (or grid stoppers) but none of these amps do that. They all use the same PI design which overdrives the snot out of the power tubes making the amp shift into Class-B operation resulting in fizz and crackling on the decay.
I totally get that, Cliff. I think your amp modeling selection thus far has been sterling. I know high gain is not necessarily your personal thing and that there are a metric TON of options currently in the firmware, but I hope you are or will soon consider a few more modern options like the ones I mentioned.

Or at the very least - as Simeon mentioned - add just a few more idealized FAS models for high gain. With your comprehensive understanding of the ins and outs of schematics, gain staging, etc., I always look forward to what you can conjure.
 

guitarzpt

Veteran
Can you printscreen the settings, I'm on AXE-FXII MarkI so I cant open the preset.
Sounds really nice. Think the second is the real amp.
 

zenaxe

Fractal Fanatic
Can you printscreen the settings, I'm on AXE-FXII MarkI so I cant open the preset.
Sounds really nice. Think the second is the real amp.
If you use Axe-Edit with your Axe, check the Fractool thread stickied at the top of the discussion forum it can convert the preset for you. It is worth it just to avoid copying screenshots. :) Most folks have laptop access of some sort.

There are only a handful of guys that really understand circuit theory and know what they're doing
Man that is true of a lot of fields. Being self-taught is an admirable thing in that it shows a lot of initiative, drive, and in some cases, talent. But too many people wear it as some kind of weird badge of honor. You can definitely accomplish a lot in certain fields without traditional learning but I always have to assume they probably have some major holes in their theoretical understanding. There's a lot to be said for traditional education. You get a lot of nooks and crannies filled in that may just never click in years of observation. That info on the 18W Marshall is a great example.

Can you imagine going to your doctor and him telling you, "By the way, I never went to med school. I'm completely self-taught! <smiles proudly>. Now please hold still for a second.".
 

stm113

Veteran
I think the first is the real amp... I'd also like to know. I'm still in FX II Mk I so I'll have to convert the patch but I look forward jamming it. THANK YOU FOR POSTING

So the Archon is basically a _______?
I've seen videos on it but haven't done much research on it
 

Sacha

Inspired
I think the first is the real amp... I'd also like to know. I'm still in FX II Mk I so I'll have to convert the patch but I look forward jamming it. THANK YOU FOR POSTING

So the Archon is basically a _______?
I've seen videos on it but haven't done much research on it
I'll post the answers in a few days when the poll dies down! I'm sure a lot of high gain amps are based on very similar circuits and then tweaked as Cliff alluded to. Given the multitude of powerful tweaking capabilities I'm sure one could match most amps that might not yet be in the box.
 

DropTheSun

Veteran
Thanks for the preset and the demo. Those two clips are so close to each other, that it doesn't matter which is the real thing. Great work!
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
I think the first is the real amp... I'd also like to know. I'm still in FX II Mk I so I'll have to convert the patch but I look forward jamming it. THANK YOU FOR POSTING

So the Archon is basically a _______?
I've seen videos on it but haven't done much research on it
http://www.prsguitars.com/index.php/amplifiers/archon/archon_100

I didn't look at the schematic but it looks Mesa'ish (hot rod Fender) with 6L6's in the power amp and multiple gain stages in the preamp.
 

stm113

Veteran
Speaking of high gain Fenders when's the last time someone here jammed on a Fender Prosonic? I played through one back in '96 and was blown away. I wonder what would get close to that in the AF2?
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
Speaking of high gain Fenders when's the last time someone here jammed on a Fender Prosonic? I played through one back in '96 and was blown away. I wonder what would get close to that in the AF2?
Try the blues junior with 5881 power tubes and a 2x10 Celestion IR.

The switchable rectifier almost makes it like more than one amp model in the Fractal. In AB mode more like a blues junior and in A mode more like the AC-15 (but with the 5881 power tubes in both cases).
 

stm113

Veteran
Cool, thank you I'll try that. Those suggestions surprise me as I think I recall the gain being fairly modern.

Any tips on the Marshall Vintage Modern while we're at it?

sorry to get off topic.
 

ChrisCG

Veteran
this is why i'd be excited to see some more FAS models, rather than anything else. take the 18w marshall and make the changes it needs to be a really great little amp and give it to us as a FAS model.
I agree with this 100%
 
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