For Chad: The Metallica Live Tones

Remlinger

New Member
Hello Fractal Community,

I wrote this piece on an outside perspective regarding the Metallica live guitar tone intending this for Chad (Hetfield guitar tech, username Zaemo). However due to space constraints, I will just have to post it here, and maybe there will be some interesting comments that spur from this.

Of note, I am in no way affiliated with Digitech and am only mentioning one of their products in hopes that Fractal may create something similar in their software.


Hello Chad,

From following Metallica's studio/live sound for many years, I would like to say a few things about it, having strived to achieve it. My comments are focused more around the tonal characteristics of their sound to my ear, how that has changed over the years, and some points that maybe you would feel so inclined to comment on.

Two main points here below: James' live heavy tone, and James' acoustic sounds for ballads.

First off, I really enjoyed the Rig Rundowns (both the TC guy and the new ones with the Fractals). I hope you guys understand how much of a following there is specifically for James Hetfield's tone. Every characteristic of the amplifiers used are sought after and speculation regularly runs wild across message boards, blogs, and other social media. From the outside looking in, it would appear that there are a lot of "trade" secrets in the mix that are tightly held, which I would not ask for details of, but it is kind of fun for people to debate, because it contributes to the "legend" of how their albums were made.

Okay, so some thoughts on the main heavy tone. To my ears, the heaviest sounding live guitar tone ever heard was on the 1992 San Diego show DVD. After reading some of your past comments on the relationship between live guitars and the rest of the mix, I completely understand that it must be a delicate balance between say 80hz and 5-6khz, and should not drown out anything else. That being said, listening to how the guitars sound in that show sound (specifically James' guitar), I heard something magical.

The guitars were simply REALLY LOUD in comparison to the rest of the mix, yet everything else was able to cut through and find its place. And, not so simply, James' guitar sounded so thunderously low that it filled out the sound on its own. Now, there's no telling to what the guitars sounded like in the mix vs. what the mix turned out to be for the DVD, but still, oh my goodness was that heavy. Two key spots here that stand out for reference from that 1992 show: Creeping Death, right when James starts the main riff at the beginning of the song, and in the Four Horsemen. In this song, the part where this sticks out is during the gallop riff right at about 2:00 when the guitars are on their own. Again, thunderous lows are what I'm talking about here.

Second, the acoustic sound for Fade to Black. I am of the opinion that no one has successfully recreated the tonal characteristics of the main acoustic melody of Fade to Black, ever. Not on YouTube (most people don't even play it correctly), and not on any cover or tribute. That being said, in the rig rundown I see that you're getting a 12 string sound from that acoustic, which is cool. It does sound good, and highly engineered. However, I thought it would be worth your time for me to mention how I have recreated (what I assume is the requested tone) of that melody. Before I describe this it's worth noting that this tone isn't with an acoustic guitar, it's electric. And, it does not sound remotely close to the album. But oh my goodness is it heavenly. Most importantly, when I play it, I think to myself, "THIS is what James is looking for when he plays that song". The key is in the fairly new pedal by Digitech called the Mosaic, their 12 string emulator.

Here's the tone.

Any clean amp tone (probably the JC tone or something that's so bone clean that it chimes like a bell or piano)

The Mosaic, which I was completely blown away by, especially when playing that song. The great thing about the pedal besides how convincing it sounds is the ability to mix the amount of wet you want in with the dry. So it can be as subtle or in your face as you want it.

The final key element: Modulated delay (closed to a vibrato sound in the repeats).

The results are so stunning to me it compelled to write this entire post. The Mosaic and that song (IMHO) were meant for each other when played live.

Chad, thanks for looking at this and enjoy having an extremely coveted position! : )



Kindest Personal Regards,

Mike
 
Welcome to the forum!

I own the Mosaic pedal, it's definitely cool but you can also get pretty great results with the Axe Fx III to be honest.
I just tried the pitch block on virtual capo mode with a pitch of +12.
Added some detune and eq and voila, 12 string sound!
So if they wanted to do a 12 string emulation via another route than their current acoustic emulations, the Axe Fx III would work just fine. :)
 
Thank you : )

Here's the thing though, since it's only emulating a capo, it doesn't emulate a 12 string, which is the G B E strings in pitch unison, and the D A E strings an octave up, unless I'm missing something??
 
Thank you : )

Here's the thing though, since it's only emulating a capo, it doesn't emulate a 12 string, which is the G B E strings in pitch unison, and the D A E strings an octave up, unless I'm missing something??

Mosaik does the same thing.
 
That is interesting, however I don't necessarily agree, only from an "ears" perspective and not knowing the technical breakdown of what the pedal does. I say this because I don't hear the octave tones in the higher strings, I only hear parallel chimes matching the pitch of the higher strings. That's really why I thought this pedal absolutely rocked, more than any other pitch emulator. Do you hear it differently than me?

Mike
 
From the manual: Immediately identifiable 12-string tones are now yours with octave low strings and doubled high strings. Single notes and full chordal strums shine with polyphonic richness and celestial movement that will inspire you. The Mosaic’s balanced low-end response with crisp octave shimmer produces a tone that’s lush and articulate, just as with a 12-string guitar.
 
From the manual: Immediately identifiable 12-string tones are now yours with octave low strings and doubled high strings. Single notes and full chordal strums shine with polyphonic richness and celestial movement that will inspire you. The Mosaic’s balanced low-end response with crisp octave shimmer produces a tone that’s lush and articulate, just as with a 12-string guitar.

Tom who used to work for Digitech explained in a video that it's just an octave above for each string.
That's why they called it '12 string effect' rather than '12 string simulator'.
Maybe I'm wrong though.
Either way, it's a great pedal but you can definitely get pretty close with the Axe Fx.
 
Tom who used to work for Digitech explained in a video that it's just an octave above for each string.
That's why they called it '12 string effect' rather than '12 string simulator'.
Maybe I'm wrong though.
Either way, it's a great pedal but you can definitely get pretty close with the Axe Fx.

Yeah could be either I guess...I've used other pitch effects in the past and there's just something about that effect that's more convincing and (pardon the redundancy) heavenly.
 
Here's the thing though, since it's only emulating a capo, it doesn't emulate a 12 string, which is the G B E strings in pitch unison, and the D A E strings an octave up

The correct 12 string tuning is eE aA dD gG BB EE where the bottom 4 strings are an octave up and the top 2 strings are in unison.

The Line 6 Helix and Shuriken Variax can probably do this as it features a high level of individual string tunings.
 
The Mosaic sounds pretty good...

I'm the self proclaimed biggest Metallica fan in the world-

James talent is not only in his hands and riffs but it's the tone he dials in, that is in his head that changed the world.

However...
Here's what pisses me off...
Metallica can afford anything/tour with anything, and the Fractal stuff in their career is relatively new.

But here's my complaint. The last 3 albums in the studio were done for the most part with their live rigs.

Justice and before is classic and perfect.
Black is sonically perfect

I never heard Metallica until I was 14 in 1999- and I think Load/Reload was some of their best stuff in terms of songwriting and sounds... but it got backlash/etc.

Black/Load/Reload had a different texture and sounds of amps...
Mesa, Marshall, Roland, CAE, etc...

I wish Metallica would take advantage of their success in the studio and break away from their live rig sound in the studio.

Death Magnetic is great- but it's the same sound/tone on every song... and now-a-days- everyone with a $1000-2000 guitar processor can dial in great studio tons of every amp in the world... I wish they'd take advantage of what's under their fingers.
 
Unless I have a reference tone I'm dialing to, I end up dialling in the same basic tone regardless of the amp I'm using. I'd be surprised if I'm alone...
 
The Mosaic sounds pretty good...

I'm the self proclaimed biggest Metallica fan in the world-

James talent is not only in his hands and riffs but it's the tone he dials in, that is in his head that changed the world.

However...
Here's what pisses me off...
Metallica can afford anything/tour with anything, and the Fractal stuff in their career is relatively new.

But here's my complaint. The last 3 albums in the studio were done for the most part with their live rigs.

Justice and before is classic and perfect.
Black is sonically perfect

I never heard Metallica until I was 14 in 1999- and I think Load/Reload was some of their best stuff in terms of songwriting and sounds... but it got backlash/etc.

Black/Load/Reload had a different texture and sounds of amps...
Mesa, Marshall, Roland, CAE, etc...

I wish Metallica would take advantage of their success in the studio and break away from their live rig sound in the studio.

Death Magnetic is great- but it's the same sound/tone on every song... and now-a-days- everyone with a $1000-2000 guitar processor can dial in great studio tons of every amp in the world... I wish they'd take advantage of what's under their fingers.

Thing is, Metallica has been struggling for decades now to come up with a decent successor to the Black Album or Master of Puppets. They've managed to retain commercial success, but overall the experiments have not paid off. Load/Reload have drawn a lot of (deservedly so as they are shite) criticisms of their fans, the less said about St. Anger and Lulu the better. I think by now they have given up on experimenting and concluded that what their fans want is another Master of Puppets, not another Load. Death Magnetic and Hardwired are pretty much attempts at trying to do that. And in the grand scheme of things guitar tone is inconsequential. The guitar tone of Master of Puppet is not sought after because it was good, but because the songs were good. A successful album makes fans desire the guitar tone of that album. Not the other way around. And Master of Puppets, or Justice and Ride the Lightning too for that matter, had pretty much the same guitar tone throughout.

In the grand scheme what matters more is not so much guitar tone, but writing good songs. And I think this is where Metallica is dropping the ball. They just can't seem to make lightning strike again in that regard. Maybe they are too old, maybe its just inherit to metal, how many times can you write songs about being pissed off and angry when you're a multi millionaire?
 
Thing is, Metallica has been struggling for decades now to come up with a decent successor to the Black Album or Master of Puppets. They've managed to retain commercial success, but overall the experiments have not paid off. Load/Reload have drawn a lot of (deservedly so as they are shite) criticisms of their fans, the less said about St. Anger and Lulu the better. I think by now they have given up on experimenting and concluded that what their fans want is another Master of Puppets, not another Load. Death Magnetic and Hardwired are pretty much attempts at trying to do that. And in the grand scheme of things guitar tone is inconsequential. The guitar tone of Master of Puppet is not sought after because it was good, but because the songs were good. A successful album makes fans desire the guitar tone of that album. Not the other way around. And Master of Puppets, or Justice and Ride the Lightning too for that matter, had pretty much the same guitar tone throughout.

In the grand scheme what matters more is not so much guitar tone, but writing good songs. And I think this is where Metallica is dropping the ball. They just can't seem to make lightning strike again in that regard. Maybe they are too old, maybe its just inherit to metal, how many times can you write songs about being pissed off and angry when you're a multi millionaire?

Here's why I disagree...
Metallica fans have led them in the wrong direction, and they're following.
Everyone says "we want heavy" "we want thrash"

Metallica naturally after Black did Load/Reload... they're not shit- they are their best work. The best songwriting, most advanced songwriting, some of the best recorded sounds/textures.

But the backlash caused them to go to St Anger, that back lash got them to DM/HW

I wish Metallica would do what Metallica does and what they want- and not listen to the idiots saying 'METAL!!!!' 'HEAVY!' "THRASH!"

I wish their recording and songwriting went on a more natural trend like it was Load/Reload, and then idiots caring about the length of their hair scared them away.

The worse side of it- is that the band will probably never make music outside of the band- that's why Jason left. So hope of a songwriter Hetfield- and Lars, is a genius songwriter and arranger too... I wish fans calling load/reload shit wouldn't hinder the potential of great songwriting and music we could have today and in the future... instead we get heavy thrash stuff, with their single live rig tone.

On a side note since Metallica went Fractal Lars has been spot on and tighter than ever in the group.
 
Here's why I disagree...
Metallica fans have led them in the wrong direction, and they're following.
Everyone says "we want heavy" "we want thrash"

Metallica naturally after Black did Load/Reload... they're not shit- they are their best work. The best songwriting, most advanced songwriting, some of the best recorded sounds/textures.

There is no arguing about taste, except to say that you are wrong of course. :p:D

But the backlash caused them to go to St Anger, that back lash got them to DM/HW

I wish Metallica would do what Metallica does and what they want- and not listen to the idiots saying 'METAL!!!!' 'HEAVY!' "THRASH!"

Thing is though, Metallica is not just 4 guys making music in their garage, they are a multi-million dollar corporation. Hundreds if not thousands of people depend on their livelihood on how well the band is doing. If less fans buy the music and attend the shows people will lose their jobs. That places a burden on the band. They are not making music for themselves, they have mouths to feed.

I wish their recording and songwriting went on a more natural trend like it was Load/Reload, and then idiots caring about the length of their hair scared them away.

The worse side of it- is that the band will probably never make music outside of the band- that's why Jason left. So hope of a songwriter Hetfield- and Lars, is a genius songwriter and arranger too... I wish fans calling load/reload shit wouldn't hinder the potential of great songwriting and music we could have today and in the future... instead we get heavy thrash stuff, with their single live rig tone.

It's clear, at least to me, that Metallica was heavily inspired by U2 when they did Load/Reload. U2 had gone through a major sonic and stylistic shift with Achtung Baby, embracing EDM and adopting the rockstar persona, all to great success. So Metallica sought to emulate that. Only to discover that metal fans don't like when their favorite metal band stops being metal, let alone stop sounding metal. Even saying that they were never a metal band in the first place. All of that on top of the Napster incident. They forgot that U2 had already gone through a major sonic shift in the mid 80's before, so it wasn't like it came out of nowhere for U2's fans, whereas Metallica had always presented itself as honest working class metal, opposed to the hair metal fakers. And then they showed up in Armani suits. And even committed the ultimate sacrilege. THEY DITCHED THEIR LOGO!!! The most instantly recognizable metal band logo in the world, in history!

On a side note since Metallica went Fractal Lars has been spot on and tighter than ever in the group.

Maybe because they quantized his playing on a grid? :p
 
I just want to point out that a DVD is not a live sound; it's a studio sound.

Aye. Any live recording is basically like any other studio recording. It gets mixed, altered, compressed, EQ'ed, overdubs may be added, it gets mastered. Chances are they sound nothing like how it sounded if you had been in actual attendance. Live bootleg recordings offer the truest experience of how the actual show was, they are raw and uncut. Unfortunately they usually don't sound as good, being recorded by some guy in a trench coat with a suspicious bulge in his pocket.
 
Metallica is not just 4 guys making music in their garage, they are a multi-million dollar corporation. Hundreds if not thousands of people depend on their livelihood on how well the band is doing.

1000% true
And i've made that point myself...

However- the name METALLICA on any sound recording regardless of what's on it- will sell, more than probably any other active band in the world. Just because of the name on it- not because of the sound, or songs, or music.

Likewise, Metallica sells tickets- and 99% of the crowd is there for songs - at the earliest 27 years old- upwards of 37 year old songs.

In 2004, they played only 2 songs from their latest album per show
Once I saw them in 2010 and I don't think they played ANY Death Magnetic songs (Rock in Rio Vegas) [I looked it up- they played Cyanide)

So- to summarize- with the name Metallica, and being Metallica- their records sell, their tickets sell.
I'm pretty sure the black album year by year outsells St Anger/DM/Hardwire- if not it's close

Now, what pisses me off- is Metallica's management BRAGGING about how they triple ticket prices, and got no push back from new fans- and that's their new plan- triple ticket prices.
http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/metallica-manager-explains-how-band-tripled-ticket-prices/

But the band is great to the fans, and at any price there is no value better than any show in the world than Metallica- I think i've seen them 11 times, which isn't much but considering I didn't really discover them until the year 2000, and how inactive they were for the first decade of that, it's still a decent amount.

But, once again my complaint is them not taking full advantage of what they have access to in terms of live and in the studio sonically. Steve Vai does the same thing, uses an Axe Fx- insists on using it for effects only, and using a Carvin Preamp or head. And, what's in the Fractal is better.
 
Metallica naturally after Black did Load/Reload... they're not shit- they are their best work. The best songwriting, most advanced songwriting, some of the best recorded sounds/textures.

I agree here somewhat. I personally think Puppets and Justice were their best "Metal" writing. With that said, yes I also think Load and Re-load were great albums, the problem is, they aren't the metallica us older folks know and love. Yes the writing on the songs was great, the production was great. But it just wasn't what the folks who had been there since the beginning were looking for. They looked at the song writing progression from puppets to justice, and expected the next album to be an expansion on that, taking it to the next level, but it didn't, it took a hard left turn.
But as has been stated, they weren't a bunch of young, angry 20 year olds anymore. They had changed with age, which is to be expected. They were different people. Thy themselves said, after touring justice, and having to play 15 minute songs on stage every night that were very technical, they found it very limiting as to what they could do live. And let's face it, have you heard lars try to play those older, faster, more complex songs lately? As much as I love the classic line up of metallica, minus cliff of course, if they replaced lars, they would become a much tighter, more articulate band again.

I have always said, had Load and Re-Load come out under a different band name, or from a different band all together, people would have loved them. They really are good albums, but in my mind just a complete departure from the Metallica I grew up loving and connecting with.
 
I heard Fuel, before Enter Sandman. I've heard 'of' Metallica before but never really heard a song until I was 14, in 1999. I heard Fuel maybe a little earlier because I'd watch a lot of MTV. But then discovered 'For Whom The Bell Tolls' etc

So I can't say I grew up with Metallica or experienced their music chronologically in real time like some have. For me it was Kill em All to S&M at the same time.
 
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