FOH Awareness vs. "In The Room"

aleclee

aleclee

Power User
A recent post about how the AxeFX sounded through IEM and FOH got me thinking. :eek:

In my decade or so of hanging out on guitar discussion boards, I've seen very few posts--if any--discussing how things sounded FOH. If the "in the room" sound is cool, the rig is golden. Is it just my perception or are folks whose rigs get miked more likely to think of FOH guitar sounds as the sound man's problem? When you're responsible for what's being fed to the board as opposed to a mic, do you take a greater interest in how things sound out front?

Just a random musing on a Saturday morning...
 
I've discussed (and then debated with folks) about this exact thing for years.

To most 'conventional rig' guitarists, their tone stops at the speaker cab. Everything else is on other folks. Sound engineers, mix engineers, etc.. You'll read posts from guys that wander out to talk to the FOH guys at shows and sit in the control room with the engineers; but the guitarist's 'job' in getting his tone stops with what ends up coming out of that speaker.

When you run FRFR systems; you are adding layers to your own 'guitar tone responsibility' all the way to the final tone delivered to FOH. With the routing possibilities now opened up *after* the actual cab/mic combination in your FRFR signal chain (ie. adding effects after the cab/mic) it can be a Pandora's box and I think from reading the many anecdotal accounts of folks frustrated with FRFR and going back to conventional power amps and speaker cabs (the so-called 'amp in the room' guys) that it can be a very difficult to understand, harness and control experience for some folks.

I think guys that come from backgrounds mixing FOH, doing recording engineering, mixing engineering and so forth in addition to being a guitarist are the most comfortable with a) the concept of FRFR; b) the creation and tweaking a full blown FRFR signal chain; and c) creating and enjoying using FRFR signal chains.

I've always characterized it as a 'guitarist's mind &)@$' or a 'paradigm shift' and this discussion is exactly what I meant by that. You are adding layers of possibility, control, concepts, complexity and options to what you can conceivably do with a guitarist's signal chain/tone and there are a good many folks that are just not going to make that leap because it isn't easy.

I call it work up front, party in the back. :D Because once you NAIL what you want and enjoy it, no room, no situation, no music, nothing really changes what you 'spoon feed' FOH or a recording engineer. Everything is totally consistent and perfectly handed to the mixing board in any case; all that remains is adjusting for the room, which you've now completely simplified for the engineer by magnitudes of degree assuming you know what you were doing and did it well (creating your tones).

It's work getting it set up, and the burden of doing that is on the guitarist. Once you have 'arrived' though; it's clear sailing, zero tweaking on the gig, multitudes of possibilities on the fly with a good midi controller and some expression pedals and absolutely no pressure to cope with 'rig' variables on the gig. Your mic won't crap out, your patch cables between effects won't short; the humidity of the room won't change your speaker response.
 
aleclee said:
In my decade or so of hanging out on guitar discussion boards, I've seen very few posts--if any--discussing how things sounded FOH. If the "in the room" sound is cool, the rig is golden. Is it just my perception or are folks whose rigs get miked more likely to think of FOH guitar sounds as the sound man's problem?
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I believe there are several factors that contribute to the phenomenon:

1. Participation in online forums is pretty heavily skewed towards bedroom/garage players. If you never play to an audience, it hardly matters how you would sound to them.

2. The concept of creating a group sound - hell, even the concept of playing ensemble - is an alien one to many guitarists. The most common concern for lots of them is how their solos sound to them. Screw the audience. For that matter, screw the other players and the vocalist(s), if there are any.

3. Many guitar players who gig on occasion don't have much experience with mic'ed instruments. If you haven't had the opportunity to experiment for yourself with the equipment and hear the results, you're not going to be in a position to effectively address all the issues that come up when you're faced with a large PA and a sound man. In that case, the best you can hope for is a competent sound guy with decent FOH equipment, but more often than not you'll get a lot less.

When you're responsible for what's being fed to the board as opposed to a mic, do you take a greater interest in how things sound out front?
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I don't really think so. Even when you're mic'ed, you carry responsibility for what goes to the FOH console. I've always been concerned with getting the sound I hear to the audience with as little alteration as possible. In the "old school" scheme of things, that meant working with the sound guy to optimize mic placement and EQ of the guitar channel. Now it means requesting that he not use channel EQ on what I send him.
 
I've always been concerned about the FOH sound. I don't know what rooms all the "in the room" guys play in, but more often than not small to medium club venues leave a lot to be desired IME. Small stage, poor acoustics, drums especially snare and cymbals overpowering everything else on stage. And on large stages or outdoors, there ain't no "room." 4x12 cabs can be difficult to hear on stage, while you're ripping the face off a few people directly in front of it.

With modern DSP processing, more pro sound guys go for a relatively flat response but it still seems to be the norm in many cases to have excessive bass boost for the kick drum, and excessive treble boost so the vocals "cut through." The combination can make it difficult to get a good DI or mic'd guitar tone.

I run sound occasionally for some events with regional/semi-national acts. I have noticed that more of the pro acts run their stage amps at fairly low volume, and request more monitor feed. The opener/local acts tend to crank their amps to ridiculous levels on stage.

The AxeFX lends itself to getting a good consistent tone through variety of gear. I can usually hear my guitar on stage much better running through the monitors than through backline amps. I prefer this to hoping for some mojo "in the room" sound, it just doesn't happen that often for me - YMMV. I can't help but wonder if a lot of the "in the room" guys ever get out of their bedroom/garage/etc.
 
What helped me, I think, was that I developed my amp-rig tone (pre-AxeFx) through IEM's listening to my cab mic'd in a room far away. I learned very quickly that the sounds I dialed in at home didn't translate well to the mic. Also that half an inch difference in mic placement can make a big difference. The IEM's translated well to FOH so I knew I could start programming sounds with my IEM's at home.

All of this gave me the knowledge of what a good mic'd amp sound is through a PA.
 
That forum and the axe has changed me forever. I have always been a live player but played many small churchs, street festivals, and dive bars. That meant that often I got no mike or a mike and no monitor. I had no idea what FOH sounded like because I thought my in the room sound was good. WhenI hear video of my old band I sounded boomy and had not cut. When I heard recordings from the board I sounded thin.

I credit Scott with changing my views. It was when he started talking about the magazine article with the top FOH guys in some guitar magazine. After that my only focus is giving the FOH a solid tone that they don't need to tweak to much that just sits well in the mix. As a result my in the room sounds sucks butI am told by all the FOH guys I have dealt with that they love the axe and that my tone "just sits so nice"
 
Scott and Jay, I couldn't agree more with you guys (and thank you guys for the endless tips I have integrated into my approach). At most venues I play at (which are mostly churches, as well as the odd bar, theater or festival) I set up, do a 30-second global EQ and reverb tweak to get things right for my environment and then walk up to the sound guy. There is nothing better than asking "How's everything sound?" and seeing the incredulous look on their faces when they tell me "I have everything flat... I didn't have to do anything (or hardly anything).... and it sounds GREAT!!!" I've been on this Fractal board for 2.5 years, and my level of knowledge now is leaps and bounds ahead of where I was when I first signed up.

Because I play electric, acoustic, bass, keys and sing (all of which I use my Axe-FX for btw!!), I have always tried to consider the needs and concerns of the other musicians. And I have different patches (and stylistic approaches) for when I'm playing with a full band versus a duo or trio. Different situations require me to fill different sonic spaces. But thanks to the things I have learned on this board, I am now able to better consider where the sound engineer is coming from. And that is invaluable to me.

Thanks again!
-AL
 
Me personally, I've never felt that my FOH tone was anyones responsibilty but my own.

That means that I took the time to educate myself with as many of the aspects of FOH and it's various disciplines as was possible from running sound to tearing down and setting up both small and huge systems. I also asked a million questions of folks much smarter and experienced than I about FOH.

Also, Am I playing in a small room, large room, bar or outside?

Am I miced or do I need to furnish my own FOH... ie, some clubs are so small that you only mic up the vocals...

Is the FOH EQ'd properly or has the room been balanced recently?

Is the FOH Stereo or Mono?

If I'm being miced, what kind of mic?

Are there subs?

What is the crossover frequency?

Does the FOH engineer understand what I am feeding him?

(and at times, what temp, where are the air conditioning returns and vents, is it gonna be humid, will I have a monitor mix or EIM...)

All these variables and many many more impact my sound as much or moreso than anything else when it comes to what the audience hears.

That's why you'll hear a lot of experienced folks say that they'll have a tone used for gigging and one for practice... that one for gigging factors in as many variables as is possible for each venue you play in and the other folks you are playing with.

Me and my cousin both play each week with 2 Axe-Fx Ultras and we are always asking the FOH guy if we are ok... are our patch levels ok... no nasty patch changes he heard... is our reverb killing the room... too much effects... it's a weekly thing for us to approach him to get feedback so that we can then go do our homework to make his job as easy as possible.

Sure, you're gonna run into FOH engineers who won't give you the time of day, but in most cases, they are guys just like us and will appreciate everything you do to make thier jobs easier... especially if you get with them before the gig and discuss what you are bringing to the mix....
 
I was having this same discussion the other night during a gig with one of the horn players. I send 2 stereo XLR out's from my Axe to FOH. We all use IEMs and Avioms to mix our individual monitor returns - pure heaven! I've got my Aviom mix and most of the time I'm grinning ear to ear and could care less what's happening out front - thats the sound guys job.
 
If you play wireless and go out into the room during soundcheck to hear what it sounds like, if you haven't already noticed this from hearing people other than yourself soundcheck, the sound in the room when the room is empty is nothing at all like the sound in the room when it's full of people. One of my profs back in college used to tell us that the single best absorber of sound is a human body, even better than fiberglass insulation or couches. So don't make adjustments to your sound based Om how it sounds in the room during soundcheck. You'll likely end up making it so when the room fills up, it's way dark and boomy. If you're like most of the bands I've been in, and the room never fills up, then no worries. ;)
 
For the last year my cousin and I have been jamming Sunday AM and PM at a large church in NC. Seats about 2500 max.... currently configured for 1800 I think... The AM service is a little more laid back than the PM service where we tend to turn it up and jam.

I've had my Axe since February and my cousin since November I think.. or thereabouts... He had an 11 Rack before I was was using a Digitech GNX3 that I still have and used for probably 5 or 6 years. I honestly can't remember the last time I gigged with an actual amp and pedals....

With the Axe, the FOH guy at the church loves it. I tend to have patches that are real clean and tight... distortion patches in particular with a good bit of bite... which the FOH really likes as he can do what he wants with it.

With all my digital rigs before the Axe, playing in different venues from coffee houses to clubs to small, mid and large sized churches and several street festivals I have gotten good reviews from FOH because my main rhythm patch had just enough edge and bite to kinda cut through a mix and I always dial in a bit of boost to my lead patches. In all venues, I have gotten with the FOH guy beforehand and told them I had a digital rig, with a set solo boost followed by the obvious questions... Do you have a spare channel and are you running stereo :)

During sound check, I would always hit the solo boost and ask if it is too much and adjust accordingly. When we have done sound checks on the run, I would hit the first solo break and watch the FOH reaction... if he reaches for the knob like he was poked, I know it's too hot and I would adjust the boost before I hit it again.

With this steady weekly deal and the Axe I have been getting great reviews from FOH. We use IEM for AM and some EAW LA212 monitor wedges for the PM service. What I dial in at home I get for the most part in both systems as well as in the house. My output EQ's are all flat.

The FOH is best of all though! It's a 30,000 watt system with 2 EV line arrays hanging 30 ft. in the air with a pair of EV subs on the floor! The line arrays are hanging about 50 - 60 ft. apart and when I am stereo, it is AMAZING! (Sadly, not stereo on a regular basis yet.... but gonna get there soon)

We love our FOH guys! They do amazing work with little Thanks!
 
Question for all of ya, Are you all using atomic FRFRs or something similar? How many of you are using an amp and cab. I am using my carvin TS-100 stereo Tube amd through a Marshall 4x12 with V30s. I am gettin a good sound but am wondering what it would sound like with 2 atomic cabs using the TS-100 and using the cab sims and then run into the PA directly for FOH sound. I have yet to gig with the Axe. My next gig is not til the 2nd or 3rd of june. It is a pricey jump to buy the atomics right now and I would have to buy the non powered units and run them with the TS. Its all tube (EL34s and 12ax7s) with 50 watts per side. I hear a lot of great things about the cabs. I really want to get the most out of the Axe (Since I paid for it) and it is lookin like that is the way to go!
 
The main preset I use as a starter for building most of my "normal bass" presets was built while playing through 1/2 of a FRFR PA system inside the PA owner's house, so I think I got a good core signal that should work well through most PAs. It sounded REALLY punchy through that PA but it definitely sounds different through the IEMs but FOH guys have said it sounds good. By the time I jump out with my wireless and take a listen, my ears are typically already used to the IEMs, so the FOH sounds weird at that point, so I just rely on our sound guy to verify that everything is okay - and I trust him since he's also a bass player in a Rush tribute band.
 
The general hit or miss translation from my amp sound that I was hearing onstage to the tones coming out of the FOH is something that's driven me mildly crazy, and that I've worked on, for a couple of decades. I've always taken as much responsibility as I can practically allow to get a very good sound out to the audience. I've tweaked my FOH strip many times over the years if the sound 'tech' was....just bad.

I've frequently gone offstage to listen to my FOH tone and many times recoiled in horror what I heard coming through it. While I never expected a perfect translation due to close miking, mic types, etc., my FOH tone I've heard over the years was generally unsatisfying. Sometimes it was really, really, good, sometimes just 'ok', very often bad, but the lack of consistent FOH tone was something I felt I needed to correct.

While I've learned a lot from a few really good sound techs who've taken the time to educate me about this translation (some EQ/gain suggestions, etc.), far too often it's the standard "point an SM57 exactly at the center of the cone, and angle it ~30 degrees' and that's it. Sometimes that works, but often a thin, reedy, strident tone is at the mixer input and they have to do EQ gymnastics to get anything out of it...if they even go that far.

Over the years, there have only been a handful of live sound techs who'd re-orient the mic to find a sweet spot (I can understand the lack of time to properly do that during a busy gig with several bands, but mic re-positioning almost never happens either when that time is available IME) if they didn't like what they were hearing at the current position.

I've spent years trying to get a better FOH tone, doing everything from miking each speaker in both my 4x12's to find the best sounding one (and, in each cab, there was one that clearly sounded better than the other three), playing with direct boxes, etc. only to find I was still very much at the mercy of the tech's ability, and poor, beat up, reproduction equipment at a lot of venues. The biggest issues I had found were the lack of consistent mics, mic types, and position. I very much wanted to eliminate those variations if possible.

When I first heard of the AFX I found it interesting, etc. but started to seriously look into it after researching it's IR/cab sim aspect. I thought, finally, I could monitor exactly what was going to the FOH, and my tasty tones would translate properly.

I spent a couple of hours a few weeks ago tweaking my patches through a high end, very powerful PA in a large club here in town; and found that was a very worthwhile thing to do since my current monitor (RCF-310a) isn't all that accurate I've found (but does, and can, sound really good), and my patches through some large/flatter rigs were needing some EQ'ing occasionally either at the FOH, or in my global AFX EQ. Subsequent gigs with the newly tuned patches have made my FOH translation all that much better through diverse rigs and rooms. These weren't a major reworking, just some shaping with EQ to work with an accurate FOH. Good stuff...

FWIW, I've never gotten so much positive feedback from audiences regarding my tone as I have over the last couple of years using the AFX direct into the FOH. People may not know exactly why, but when they say things like your "band's sound is really good...you guys just sound better than the other groups that play here", I suspect a big part of that is the attention I put into my FOH sound, as well as the other band members using good gear, knowing how to get the best out of it, and thinking of what the audience is hearing.

Also, I'm fortunate that pretty much any band I've been in works together to sculpt a total, cohesive band sound, where the elements are worked to fit in the context of the entire mix...all of us are continually aware of that. That doesn't mean you'll have to horribly butcher you precious 'amp in the room' tone, but you just need to keep an open mind and aware of the most important thing...the big picture. It's worth it...
 
Hi all! Great thread... a subject I've been curious about. Brief intro, I'm a tube amp guy, but I'm considering getting an Axe for 4CM usage plus having the option to use the amp sims.

Anyway, my question is: is running direct really that much more reliable a method for getting the desired FOH sound, as opposed to mic'ing a real cab? My thinking is when you run direct, you send your desired FOH sound to the board. When mic'ing a real cab, your desired sound comes out of the cab, and is picked up the mic and sent to the board, so the difference is the mic type/placement, and some EQing at the board would be needed to compensate. But is that really a big deal? Isn't some EQing at the board going to be needed either way, to compensate for the type of PA being used, the room acoustics, the number of people in the room absorbing the sound, etc.? Seems like either way you need a good pair of ears FOH to figure out the proper EQ for the particular gig. Am I missing something?
 
LostInSpace said:
Anyway, my question is: is running direct really that much more reliable a method for getting the desired FOH sound, as opposed to mic'ing a real cab? My thinking is when you run direct
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ABSOLUTELY - IF you use the amp/cab sims. You send the "mic'ed cab" version of the preset to FOH in exactly the same way no matter the location or PA. No issues - as posted above - with room dynamics, different mics, positioning on the cab for sweet spot, 1 mic instead of 2, and so on.
True, FOH can still screw it up.. but at least YOU are sending them the same signal EVERY time.
 
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