FM3 Firmware Version 5.00 beta 1

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jclemensfl said:
But when you say we really had to do "everything else" first, it's confusing for us morons, who don't understand why you "had to."
In other words, I would trade this entire update and everything in it for an improved Virtual Capo. The amp improvements, the block improvements, the UI improvements, all of it, etc. Because my audiences can't tell the difference. But they can tell when the Virtual Capo doesn't work well. Or at least they can tell something is wrong, even if they don't know what it is.
So we ask ourselves, is it that Virtual Capo improvements are impossible to do, or that other things just had priority (had to do "everything else")? Again, you don't have to answer that question. But it is something at least some of us are wondering. And it can be difficult to understand why it is more important to improve a block 3 or 4 percent when a major feature for live gigging is not usable.
I think these are legitimate thoughts to have on a forum that don't deserve other forum members telling them to "buy something else."
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thanks man!

You said exactly that I feel.
 
yek said:
If that would be the criterium, FAS could have stopped improving everything after the Axe-Fx Standard.
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LOL. Oh, I don't deny it! And if they had stopped improving the amps, and gave us an excellent Virtual Capo and a UI screen I can see with my bad eyesight, I would be all for it.
And of course, my comment was not meant to say "don't improve anything." But I think it is legitimate to favor improving something that might not be usable in a live situation for many right now vs. other minor sound enhancements.
It's at least a debatable point, right?
 
I loaded 5.00 b1 in last night and ended up getting lost, playing for over three hours. I’m not sure exactly what the changes to the power amp modeling did, but my presets sound much better. Hard to explain, but the bottom end seems more immediate?

Anyway, another banger from Cliff and the FAS team! Thank you!
 
Coming from the software and product development world, I have to sympathize with FAS here. It's truly hard sometimes to get a pulse on how important a feature or improvement or fix is. In many environments there are scoring systems where features/requests/bugs are ranked based on severity (impact), frequency or how many users affected, difficulty or cost, and in some cases risk of not doing something (foregone new revenue, reputation, loyalty). Consider that it's a herculean effort to quantitate many of these things, and layer on that as a private company they can have their own personal lists or feelings of what they want their product to be or who it should appeal to. Now layer on the fact that there are 3 tiers of products in the current generation, and the flexible cadence of new software releases (when it's ready versus quarterly, etc)... it's a truly complex task that in the end can be more about minimizing whining than maximizing cheerleading.

I get that some people don't feel heard, and maybe there's a better mechanism for FAS to crowdsource prioritization data, but if I step back it's almost impossible for me to fault how they approach things. Fixing of broken things seems really fast and high priority, super shiny new features like Cygnus are done on a slower cadence, and middling new features like new amps and UI improvements trickle along at a moderate pace. Not to mention that they still retain the "if you want the best of all worlds, buy the flagship product" angle. Can you imagine somebody going into a Mercedes dealer and complaining that their C-class doesn't have the same air conditioned and reclining seats and overall acceleration as the S-class?
 
jclemensfl said:
Perhaps this is part of the problem for us on the outside, not understanding your work flow. And not that you owe us an explanation of that, by the way. It's none of our business.
But when you say we really had to do "everything else" first, it's confusing for us morons, who don't understand why you "had to."
In other words, I would trade this entire update and everything in it for an improved Virtual Capo. The amp improvements, the block improvements, the UI improvements, all of it, etc. Because my audiences can't tell the difference. But they can tell when the Virtual Capo doesn't work well. Or at least they can tell something is wrong, even if they don't know what it is.
So we ask ourselves, is it that Virtual Capo improvements are impossible to do, or that other things just had priority (had to do "everything else")? Again, you don't have to answer that question. But it is something at least some of us are wondering. And it can be difficult to understand why it is more important to improve a block 3 or 4 percent when a major feature for live gigging is not usable.
I think these are legitimate thoughts to have on a forum that don't deserve other forum members telling them to "buy something else."
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These are good points.

My only thought right now is: Of audiences listening to an FM3, the fraction listening to an FM3 using virtual capo is very small. So FAS decided to prioritize their time elsewhere.

With that said, I'm 100% sure FAS is now aware of the high demand for the improved Pitch block. FAS is a great company, if it's possible, they'll find a way to do it.... soon :)

And if I'm being 100% transparent - I told myself months ago that the last FW Update I'd download for the FM3 is one with the improved Pitch Block for those 0.01% times when I need it (I might still be running 4.0 beta, I don't care to update constantly).... because I was tired of chasing tones with constantly changing FW's, and the amps are awesome as is....... with that said, I'll download FW5 when it's ready :)

..................Though now that the FM3 is obsolete and isn't updated often, I won't have that issue!
yoink
 
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PossumBear said:
Can you imagine somebody going into a Mercedes dealer and complaining that their C-class doesn't have the same air conditioned and reclining seats and overall acceleration as the S-class?
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You make several good points. But can you imagine going into a Mercedes dealer and finding that their C-class doesn't have air-conditioning?
It all comes down to how important the Virtual Capo is to your performance. To some it is far more important than other features that continually get updated.
 
Cam Heiliger said:
And yet, no one is suggesting that the unit will not receive regular updates. It has and will continue to do so. My point is that no matter what those updates are, they never seem to be good enough. If you are looking for one specific feature to be upgraded only to be disappointed/enraged when it is not, that is on you, not FAS.
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Fractal is known for 2-3 things primarily: The quality of the models and effects, the frequency and impact of updates and the level of customer support. I think they have also traditionally been known for the high quality of the physical hardware, so lets say 4 main things.

If FM3 updates are not "good enough", it is because they do not uphold the standard that Fractal has set for itself in this area. Unfortunately, that standard is set with the flagship products, not the lower tier products.

When people think of the great updates that Fractal products and owners enjoy, they are thinking of the Axe-FX products that are traditionally $2000USD or more, not the lower tier products. Its not that the lower products have a lousy update experience, its just lousy compared to the flagship. Its not unreasonable for a consumer to think that Fractal is Fractal if they aren't told otherwise when they buy.

I don't know how Fractal could say it, and I'm not sure there is any way to say it in a way that works, but something along the lines of

"Our flagship Axe-FX products reflect the cutting edge of our research and innovation with a rapid update pace that Fractal is known for throughout the world. Some of the resulting innovations and improvements may appear in semi-annual updates for our mainstream consumer FM3/FM9 products when resources permit, though many will not. Our relentless commitment to industry-leading tone, quality, value and support are found throughout our products whether you are purchasing our flagship or our mainstream consumer products."

Like I said, I don't know how best to say that, or if it either can be said in a good way.

I own and enjoy an FM3. I try to make peace with the idea that it is not a traditional Fractal Audio product as much as it is product that "Features Fractal Audio Technology". I still think it packs tremendous value for $1000USD
 
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PossumBear said:
Can you imagine somebody going into a Mercedes dealer and complaining that their C-class doesn't have the same air conditioned and reclining seats and overall acceleration as the S-class?
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I think the difference here is that a Mercedes buyer understands the differences in these classes and certainly the sales person explains that to them as they try to upsell them to the S-class. I'm not sure an FM3 buyer really understands that difference. I understood it because I saw the AX8/FX8 experience- solid products that exist in a completely different orbit from the "R&D Flagship"
 
I think people are forgetting that the Axe3 processors are more powerful than the FM3’s. That doesn’t just mean fitting more things in the grid, but the speed and efficiency of the computations.

Regardless of how desired a feature is, the physical components are different. The flagship product is the most powerful and therefore the new features are created there first.

It’s easy to see “two computers” (Axe3 and FM3) and expect them to be able to do the same things. But the real takeaway is to realize just how much of the flagship they HAVE put in the FM3 which has far less power.

Imagine a 4 cylinder engine at half the cost of an 8 cylinder engine in similar truck bodies. Both are trucks. Both can tow things, but the 8 cylinder can tow more. But why. They look the same and are both trucks. It’s because of the engine.

Digital products have physical limitations.

We’ve all seen what time offers to the fractal platform. Though the answer was given, a breakthrough could appear (as it has for over 10 years many times) and more could be given to us, improving the product we bought for its current capabilities. For free.
 
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Chris Hurley said:
I agree with this sentiment entirely. This is one of the most aggravating things in the Fractal universe.

"Its not working for you? Buy something else."
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This is simply the best solution to the complaint. Yes, share your concerns and issues and let the company know your thoughts, of course. But simply doing that won’t make the virtual capo sound better for your upcoming gig. What will improve your gear for the gig is getting something that exists which does what you desire.
 
Chris Hurley said:
I agree with this sentiment entirely. This is one of the most aggravating things in the Fractal universe.

"Its not working for you? Buy something else."
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I was deterred from even trying Fractal gear for literally YEARS because of the reputation of the community as elitist/snobs/xenophobic, etc. Once I got my Axe Fx III and actually started participating, I definitely understood the fanboism that the gear of this level inspires, but, other than a few moments of friction here and there, it's been largely a pleasant experience as an owner and community member.

But you're right; to this day, there's still far too much "RTFM" and "then buy something else."
 
jclemensfl said:
You make several good points. But can you imagine going into a Mercedes dealer and finding that their C-class doesn't have air-conditioning?
It all comes down to how important the Virtual Capo is to your performance. To some it is far more important than other features that continually get updated.
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Except that in this case, people went into the Mercedes dealership to buy a car and had a choice between A Class, C Class, and E Class. The A Class has a base level AC, while the other two have high end AC with heated seats. You bought the A Class anyway hoping that one day there may be an update to put it on par with the C & E but had no guarantee that would actually happen. Now that it has not happened, you are upset.

It isn't that the FM3 doesn't have a virtual capo, it is that some people find it useable live and other don't. We all have different standards. But, once again, no one ever said that this feature would definitely be ported to the FM3, so at the end of the day, those that were hoping for it, or worse, counting on it, took a gamble and, for now at least, lost. The Fractal team has clearly heard those people and I'm sure they'll do their best to find a solution, but FFS be grateful for all of the awesome stuff that we all just got for owning this unit. We get new toys basically every other month that we don't have to pay extra for. Sure, other companies do it to, but Fractal set the standard by which they all basically have to operate now. That is pretty damn awesome.
 
rglr said:
This is a confirmed bug. I have it fixed and will post another beta once I get a couple other things sorted as well.
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Do you guys then recommend to wait a bit before updating, as it is a beta, and have no issues with those bugs?
 
chris said:
This is simply the best solution to the complaint. Yes, share your concerns and issues and let the company know your thoughts, of course. But simply doing that won’t make the virtual capo sound better for your upcoming gig. What will improve your gear for the gig is getting something that exists which does what you desire.
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I'm not talking about the virtual capo specifically- ANYTHING where someone isn't happy with something in the Fractal universe is met with "Don't like it? buy something else."

This is perhaps the lousiest possible answer to a complaint. Maybe the intent is sincere and instead of meaning "You're obviously an idiot, buy something else that the idiots use" it actually means "Unfortunately, this is how it works currently. I understand that this part isn't ideal for you but hopefully you'll find enough value in the product and its other features to keep using it."

If its the latter, say the latter, or something along those lines.
 
Blavod said:
Do you guys then recommend to wait a bit before updating, as it is a beta, and have no issues with those bugs?
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It depends on your aims. If you back everything up and document and don't mind possible frustrations, go for it. If not, not.

When we got Cygnus I had to try it, so I tried out a beta. It was awesome, no problems. With 5, I'll wait for the official release.
 
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