FM3 Firmware Version 4.00 beta 1

la noise said:
This "get the right IR as it is 85 to 95 of the tone" is hard for me to swallow.

Are my digital newbie stripes showing again?? 😳

;)

Isn't the essential character and feel in the amp model itself and the 5 to 15 percent
icing on the cake is the IR/speaker/cab/mic choice?

Or maybe some of us like 85 percent icing and 15 percent cake. :)
Click to expand...
It's not as weird as you might think.

Real cabs/speakers are a huge part of any recorded tone and that applies to IRs as well.
 
la noise said:
This "get the right IR as it is 85 to 95 of the tone" is hard for me to swallow.

Are my digital newbie stripes showing again?? 😳

;)

Isn't the essential character and feel in the amp model itself and the 5 to 15 percent
icing on the cake is the IR/speaker/cab/mic choice?

Or maybe some of us like 85 percent icing and 15 percent cake. :)
Click to expand...
The amp is filtered by the speaker. As the last filter in line, it has the most up-front effect on the tone....
 
I can run an actual amp through various speakers and cabs and mics and it is still gonna
basically be that amp. The essential nature of an amp (or amp model in this case) is always
going to be there. Certainly that amp/model can be made to shine brighter and have highlighted
certain qualities and characteristics of that amp, but is it going to fundamentally make a Plexi
a Super Reverb or a Vox a Mesa? I don't think so.

Maybe I am misunderstanding all of this, and am exposing my ignorance as an amp comes first
and then speaker/cab/IR either elevates the amp's nature or detracts from it type of guy.
 
la noise said:
I can run an actual amp through various speakers and cabs and mics and it is still gonna
basically be that amp. The essential nature of an amp (or amp model in this case) is always
going to be there. Certainly that amp/model can be made to shine brighter and have highlighted
certain qualities and characteristics of that amp, but is it going to fundamentally make a Plexi
a Super Reverb or a Vox a Mesa? I don't think so.

Maybe I am misunderstanding all of this, and am exposing my ignorance as an amp comes first
and then speaker/cab/IR either elevates the amp's nature or detracts from it type of guy.
Click to expand...
The key difference is that an IR isn't just about the speaker and the cab, it's also about the mics used to shoot a particular IR - that is why IR packs have so many variations on the same thing that sound drastically different. Those mics add a particular flavor. So, to use your coffee analogy - if your coffee filter were laced with cinnamon or vanilla flavor, it would, in fact, lend a strong similar flavor variation to any beans you use.
 
la noise said:
Isn't that a bit like saying the filter when I make my coffee has more impact on "taste" than the beans used??

I mean, it is the last thing that lovely brown liquid goes through before it hits my lips, right? :)
Click to expand...
It's more like adding spices while cooking. The speaker us the last spice added, and has, generally, the biggest shaping effect. Or, to use your coffee analogy, the speaker is the flavored creamer you put in it.

Oh, and, FWIW, I can taste the paper flavor of a coffee filter in my coffee, so I use a gold filter....
 
la noise said:
This "get the right IR as it is 85 to 95 of the tone" is hard for me to swallow.

Are my digital newbie stripes showing again?? 😳

;)

Isn't the essential character and feel in the amp model itself and the 5 to 15 percent
icing on the cake is the IR/speaker/cab/mic choice?

Or maybe some of us like 85 percent icing and 15 percent cake. :)
Click to expand...
My experience is that the IR shapes the sound more on higher gain amps than lower. So, you both could be right if you're talking about different amps.
 
The right cab has always mattered more than the right amp. Digital didn't change this.

Example - In an emergency I played a Boss DS-1 into an old SS power amp and a unlabelled mono 2x12 guitar cab. A true black box. I was just thrilled the speakers were not blown after I blew the dust off. The gear truck failed to arrive at a gig in time, traffic jam. All I had was my guitar and I scraped the rest together from what the club had in the back and a borrowed pedal from the other band.

The mids were all wrong to me and the sound had literally zero sustain, it was like a Casio keyboard from the 80s, the notes were on/off - but it had some grit and it sounded like a guitar thru an amp... mostly.

My "tone" sucked and not in a small way, but the audience loved the show. Having literally nothing to tweak but distortion on/off for dirty vs clean I focused 100% on playing and interacting with the crowd and the band.

It taught me a lesson I never forgot. I asked people what they heard and they all said the same thing "sounded fine" b/c to them it was all still going thru a guitar cab. It was in the ballpark for rock after all, which it was. My beef with it was enormous but no one else much noticed. So unless it's classical, run around more and sweat your tone less and if you can only pick one thing besides the guitar, get the cab right.
 
LiquidGuitar said:
My experience is that the IR shapes the sound more on higher gain amps than lower. So, you both could be right if you're talking about different amps.
Click to expand...
High gain is in the preamp, not the power amp, and cabs affect the power amp.

The cabinet resonance, the speaker size and shape and cone material and the magnet type, the microphone placement and type and the microphone preamp, the speaker impedance curve all affect how a tube amp and/or tube amp model sounds.

In my experience, using the default cab for a Fender Deluxe or Tweed Deluxe sounds very different than switching to a 4x12 cab with Creambacks. Try switching to cab F1.0001 on any amp and see what it sounds like; high or low gain amps are still affected.

These might help explain: Why Power Tubes Sound Different and How to choose
 
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la noise said:
This "get the right IR as it is 85 to 95 of the tone" is hard for me to swallow.

Are my digital newbie stripes showing again?? 😳

;)

Isn't the essential character and feel in the amp model itself and the 5 to 15 percent
icing on the cake is the IR/speaker/cab/mic choice?

Or maybe some of us like 85 percent icing and 15 percent cake. :)
Click to expand...
Michael Landau talks about how cans change an amps character. Speakers and cabs are a huge component of tone whether in the digital or analog world.
 
I'll 'third' the quietness issue with the JP IIC+ Green amp. I've attached the preset that sounds great in my III but sounds dead in my FM3. I can't think of ANY reason why there should be such a huge volume/drive discrepancy. The first scene, "Clean" is the one I'm talking about. Try it on your Axe III first, then load it on your FM3. I'll post this in the bugs section, too. I was kinda bummed to hear how different this sounds on the FM3 after the Cygnus update. It's not the pad, I'm using the same IR, I don't have any output EQs engaged on either unit. The only thing I can think of is that there is an "Input 1 Gain" in the Axe Fx III that is set at about 3.8 and there isn't such an option in the FM3. Not sure if this directly correlates to the "Input Trim" in the amp block (or can be made up for there). Ideas?

EDIT: 4.00 b on FM3, 16.01 on Axe III. I use a different IR in the real preset, but it's paid so I found one that more or less gets the character of the preset across with a stock cab.
 

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Fletcher said:
Michael Landau talks about how cans change an amps character. Speakers and cabs are a huge component of tone whether in the digital or analog world.
Click to expand...

No argument here on that. There is most definitely an impact on shaping an amp's tone.,
That said, I have yet to find a speaker or IR that can turn a Diezel into a Vox, though,
or vice versa. :)
 
Cygnus sounds great but will have to roll back for now. I used it at practice last Sunday and I will definitely need to do some more tweaking of my presets. And Out 2 was a huge issue which I’m sure will be resolved quickly. I ended up running a line from Out 1 to my FRFR instead.

Gotta big show at the House of Blues next weekend and just don’t have time to tweak presets right now. But once that show is over I’ll dive back in and hopefully beta 2 will be out.

But after using the Cygnus beta over the weekend I’ll have to resolve some cpu limit issues from adding in Ultra Rez IR’s. I’ll either have to ditch my Drive blocks in favor of the Input Boost to save cpu or ditch my Reverb blocks and use the Plex verb instead to save cpu. Leaning towards ditching the Reverb block as I like using the tone control in the Drive block for tone shaping. Decisions decisions.
 
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