Fletcher-Munson - Give Me Back My Tone You Dirty $#@%!!

[Warrior]

I understand the Fletcher-Munson effect when we crank up the volume and how to tweak the lows and highs and maybe increase the mids to compensate. But there is one effect on my tone that I have not been able correct and it is driving me crazy.

It’s difficult to describe the characteristic I’m losing when I crank up the volume on a balanced, “growly” and “chewy” tone set at lower volumes. One person referred to it as “hair”.

At a lower volume I get a balanced, “growly” and “chewy” tone. But when I crank up the volume, the “growly, chewy” (hairy) tone is gets cleaned up and loses those characteristics - It's Hair.

I’ve tried tweaking based on advice for dealing with the Fletcher-Munson effect, changing IR’s and adding a drive pedal to get the “hair” back on the tone, but nothing seems to work. It’s almost as if the gain decreases. (Yes, I tried increasing the gain) Keep in mind, I’m using a CLR FRFR so I’m basically taking this good tone and increasing the volume via the CLR. It’s not like on a tube amp where the characteristic of the tone changes because of pushing the amp and engaging the power section and tubes.

What have you found that works in dealing with this?

 

[APOGEE123]

I don't play at loud volumes with my Axe FX but there has to be a way to compensate for this in the advanced parameters

 

[Warrior]

I'm certain it isn't an issue with the Axe-FX...... just an issue of increasing "volume". Hoping to learn some lessons from others that may have resolved this issue for themselves.

 

[Dancing Frog]

Non-linearities in the stiffness and damping of the speakers.

 

[greiswig]

If you use a word like hair, it is really open to interpretation what you mean.

Can your maybe describe a little more what you're experiencing? Is it that an overdrive tone starts to almost sound like it is getting cleaner at higher volumes? Or is it that the high frequency grit/fizz/hair/harmonics that distortion brings out disappear as the volume goes up? Or something else?

 

[luke]

Your sound is not changing as it gets louder, how your body interprets it however does.

Your experience is why it has been said many times here that you need to create your sounds AT GIG VOLUME.

 

[BigD1977]

Your sound is not changing as it gets louder, how your body interprets it however does.

Your experience is why it has been said many times here that you need to create your sounds AT GIG VOLUME.

Absolutely. It should be noted that the Fletcher-Munson curves were achieved by testing a number of people and averaging the results. The specific values at each frequency band differ from person to person.

Gigging volume is the only way to be happy with your tone. Other people will not notice as much as you.

 

[aziz]

I find the exact opposite, there seems to be a lot more gain when playing @100db. Then my perfect everything-everywhere-allround-rock'nroll-crunch is almost a clean tone when playing at home.

 

[laughyouraxeoff]

Post examples of the tone when you like it and then when you crank it up so we can hear it in action. Then you can get much better tips.

 

[Warrior]

If you use a word like hair, it is really open to interpretation what you mean.

Can your maybe describe a little more what you're experiencing? Is it that an overdrive tone starts to almost sound like it is getting cleaner at higher volumes?

This!! :encouragement:

Your sound is not changing as it gets louder, how your body interprets it however does.

Your experience is why it has been said many times here that you need to create your sounds AT GIG VOLUME.

Yep, that's my point.... I have been working on doing just that and have not been able to resolve the issue. ("Issue" meaning my personal situation - not indicating any problem with the rig itself).

Absolutely. It should be noted that the Fletcher-Munson curves were achieved by testing a number of people and averaging the results. The specific values at each frequency band differ from person to person.

Gigging volume is the only way to be happy with your tone. Other people will not notice as much as you.

I'm trying.... i would add to this that (in my perception) it's not so much the frequency that's "my" issue but the texture (i.e. gain).

 

[greiswig]

This!! :encouragement:

Okay, so the quote system here doesn't seem to let me do what I need, but you're saying that things seem to get cleaner as you turn up the overall volume. Or conversely that things get more "hair" and distortion as you turn the volume down. I'll just say this: you're not alone in perceiving this.

Mind if I ask if this is a really clear difference with or without also trying to sit in a mix with other instruments? IOW, if you set up your tone in isolation, it might sound like it has plenty of cut, but once you are competing with drums, etc., it might not have enough. Could that be part of what you are experiencing?

Everybody here is probably technically correct: there is no change in shape to the clipping of the waveform, so it isn't less distorted. It's just perception. But that doesn't really solve the problem, right? Because it's all about perception anyway. What you hear and what everyone else hears, regardless of why they hear it.

So the key question is how to properly set it up so that at gig volume, with other instruments, everything sounds just like you want it to. For me, it can be hard because it is easy to set up the tone in complete isolation, with great monitors and even at pretty high volume. But no band, and no concert stage. But then you get in a big room, with other instruments, and suddenly you feel like there's not enough cut, not enough beef, not enough...something. Scott Peterson posted some tricks he uses with the cab preamp to make sure he has projection in a live environment, but I don't remember whether he said he adjusts tone and overdrive *without that* in his studio, then enables it for live. If that's the trick, that might explain some things to me at least.

Part of what I sometime hear seems contrary to the F-M curve as I understand it. If I play the same patch at lower volume, it almost seems like most of what I hear are highs, without the midrange "string" sound. No lows, either, but I expect that part. Then I turn up, and suddenly everything kind of goes back into balance, especially the mids. This seems to happen more with my CLR than with my studio monitors, which makes me wonder if there is something about the DSP in the CLR that is impacting what I hear.

 

[Warrior]

Post examples of the tone when you like it and then when you crank it up so we can hear it in action. Then you can get much better tips.

I'm not near my rig right now but lets me get some help from a couple of friends.

In Vai's Jemini Distortion pedal demo you can hear the chewy, gooy, gainy (hairy) tone similar to what I get at lower voumes.



When I crank the volume (via my CLR) the tone seems to clean up and become more Angus like.

 

[Warrior]

.....Mind if I ask if this is a really clear difference with or without also trying to sit in a mix with other instruments? IOW, if you set up your tone in isolation, it might sound like it has plenty of cut, but once you are competing with drums, etc., it might not have enough. Could that be part of what you are experiencing?

I get plenty of cut within a full mix. Perhaps even more than I want.

.....
Everybody here is probably technically correct: there is no change in shape to the clipping of the waveform, so it isn't less distorted. It's just perception. But that doesn't really solve the problem, right? Because it's all about perception anyway. What you hear and what everyone else hears, regardless of why they hear it.

So the key question is how to properly set it up so that at gig volume, with other instruments, everything sounds just like you want it to.

Spot on.

.....
For me, it can be hard because it is easy to set up the tone in complete isolation, with great monitors and even at pretty high volume. But no band, and no concert stage. But then you get in a big room, with other instruments, and suddenly you feel like there's not enough cut, not enough beef, not enough...something. Scott Peterson posted some tricks he uses with the cab preamp to make sure he has projection in a live environment, but I don't remember whether he said he adjusts tone and overdrive *without that* in his studio, then enables it for live. If that's the trick, that might explain some things to me at least.

It's not a matter of projection. It's maintaining that "gainy texture" as the volume increases and keeping the tone from cleaning up (or compressing?).

.....
Part of what I sometime hear seems contrary to the F-M curve as I understand it. If I play the same patch at lower volume, it almost seems like most of what I hear are highs, without the midrange "string" sound. No lows, either, but I expect that part. Then I turn up, and suddenly everything kind of goes back into balance, especially the mids. This seems to happen more with my CLR than with my studio monitors, which makes me wonder if there is something about the DSP in the CLR that is impacting what I hear.

Interesting thought.

 

[bigbrown2056]

Try lowering the master volume on the amp your using, less amp sag and maybe raise the crunch parameter a bit. It'll sound pretty thin at low volumes through the clr but it'll be closer to what you want at higher volumes. Post your patch here and let everyone look at it, it'll help everyone help you out.

 

[vinnieRice]

There is no substitute to finalizing your sounds at gig level with your band. If you can't do this, change your situation until you can! The alternative is a learning process over a few months of going backwards and forwards until you understand what the differences in your perception are and how to compensate for them. The other thing is to not get too hung up on what you are supposed to sound like. 'Good enough' is usually good enough. I'm old so I can say these things and know their truthiness.

 

[luke]

I'll say what I always say, back when we recorded, I made myself a mix of my band sans me. I use this CD to adjust my sounds and levels to. It's a must have IMO.

 

[Warrior]

Try lowering the master volume on the amp your using, less amp sag and maybe raise the crunch parameter a bit. It'll sound pretty thin at low volumes through the clr but it'll be closer to what you want at higher volumes. Post your patch here and let everyone look at it, it'll help everyone help you out.

I'll give it a shot, thanks.

There is no substitute to finalizing your sounds at gig level with your band. If you can't do this, change your situation until you can! The alternative is a learning process over a few months of going backwards and forwards until you understand what the differences in your perception are and how to compensate for them. The other thing is to not get too hung up on what you are supposed to sound like. 'Good enough' is usually good enough. I'm old so I can say these things and know their truthiness.

I get that and I can accomplish this but I need to understand what the underlying issue is to focus on. I don't think it's EQ. The "Good enough" I'm seeking is not the issue (I believe I have that now). It's more of the tone/feel factor that connects the tone in our heads to our guitar and inspires us.

I'm 50 so I'm not old yet.

I'll say what I always say, back when we recorded, I made myself a mix of my band sans me. I use this CD to adjust my sounds and levels to. It's a must have IMO.

I believe you and this is good advice. I don't think that will totally address the issue I'm trying to resolve but it will certainly help with the total package. I'll work on this.

Thanks everybody for the tips, advice, etc. I really appreciate the help.

Keep it coming!!

 

[BigD1977]

Yeah, I think I see what you're getting at. I used to gig with a lot of distortion and found that my sound got cleaner at higher volumes in a band situation. Then, my clean sounds would break up a little better at higher volumes.

Just a suggestion, and it's contrary to what you might want to do, but use a little less gain and a more middy sound. The hairy sound you mention (as especially evident in the Vai clip) seems like it would smoothen out at high volume and get a little lost in the high end in a mix.

 

[lqdsnddist]

I think the whole "practice" vs "gig" volume issues can be a bit blown out of proportion, at least to some degree.

There are a ton of factors that go into perception of sound/tone at a given volume, minimum audibility curves, thresholds of hearing at specific frequencies, Fletcher-Munson effects, the non-linearity of the basilar membrane in the cochlear and the effect of the cochlear "amplifier", the differing acoustics of the room between a practice space and a crowded venue, response curves of the loud speaker system, etc, etc etc.

Point is that yes, its is different at different volumes, but its not always that different, and we need to ask ourselves does it really matter that much ?

Somehow for most of my playing life, I was able to use a given handful of amps and pedals, and craft tones, either at home, at practice, or at gigs, mic'd or unmiked, that seemed to translate well enough. I can't remember ever spending any time tweaking all my amp and pedal board settings for different gig volumes etc.

Now we seem to feel we need to have 3 versions of each preset for 3 different playback volumes. Its cool we can do that and all, but does it really matter that much ?

Does good music, ie; good tone, still not sound like good music regardless of the playback system or volume ?

I've been listening to Floyd's "Animals" album lately and it still sounds darn fine to be regardless of if I'm hearing it via iPhone earbuds, my laptops tiny little speakers, my home monitor system, in my car, or my powered wedge monitors. If I a/b'd them side by side I could pick out differences I'm sure, but Gilmour's tones are still fantastic regardless of the playback system and volume.

Sounds good at 2am listening on my laptop, sounds good at 8pm throwing a CD on through the PA system during load-in. Vastly different volumes, vastly different systems, still great music......so perhaps we needed give quite as much worry to these things ?

Maybe just create a good tone, play it well, put on a great show, and people should be happy ?

 

[laughyouraxeoff]

I think the whole "practice" vs "gig" volume issues can be a bit blown out of proportion, at least to some degree.

There are a ton of factors that go into perception of sound/tone at a given volume, minimum audibility curves, thresholds of hearing at specific frequencies, Fletcher-Munson effects, the non-linearity of the basilar membrane in the cochlear and the effect of the cochlear "amplifier", the differing acoustics of the room between a practice space and a crowded venue, response curves of the loud speaker system, etc, etc etc.

Point is that yes, its is different at different volumes, but its not always that different, and we need to ask ourselves does it really matter that much ?

Somehow for most of my playing life, I was able to use a given handful of amps and pedals, and craft tones, either at home, at practice, or at gigs, mic'd or unmiked, that seemed to translate well enough. I can't remember ever spending any time tweaking all my amp and pedal board settings for different gig volumes etc.

Now we seem to feel we need to have 3 versions of each preset for 3 different playback volumes. Its cool we can do that and all, but does it really matter that much ?

Does good music, ie; good tone, still not sound like good music regardless of the playback system or volume ?

I've been listening to Floyd's "Animals" album lately and it still sounds darn fine to be regardless of if I'm hearing it via iPhone earbuds, my laptops tiny little speakers, my home monitor system, in my car, or my powered wedge monitors. If I a/b'd them side by side I could pick out differences I'm sure, but Gilmour's tones are still fantastic regardless of the playback system and volume.

Sounds good at 2am listening on my laptop, sounds good at 8pm throwing a CD on through the PA system during load-in. Vastly different volumes, vastly different systems, still great music......so perhaps we needed give quite as much worry to these things ?

Maybe just create a good tone, play it well, put on a great show, and people should be happy ?

I think in a lot of cases this is true. Sometimes it really matters but I feel it's less often than not.