Fletcher-Munson curve query

Most logical statement to date! How simple is that?

I bought an AXE MK II around a year ago and overthought it and sold it due to 'option anxiety'.
I swore I would take a more simple and 'amp like' approach to it this time (after buying the XL) and so far, so good. (maybe except for this FM curve thread!)
I've been playing live, 2-3 nights a week for around 30 years. I've done over 3000 gigs - what am I doing???? Lol
I've got my shit down by now. Just get on with it! (Rant to myself over!)

I really appreciate the way you laid it all out there - with simplicity.

Thx a bunch!
Loved the video.

Exactly man!

I'm in the same boat as you. I have steady gigs 3-4 nights a week (House of Blues, Disneyland etc, Irvine Improv etc.) and before the axe fx I would do the classic guitarist thing:

Skronk skronk skronk, chug, weeedly dee dee
*turn a couple knobs*
Skronk skronk, chug chug, weedley de dee
*turn a couple knobs*
Press a pedal, switch a channel, lather rinse repeat. Stand in front of my amp a little further away.

Then do soundcheck.

With the axe fx before a gig? Same damn thing. I just go to the front panel instead. You'll be fine, happy gigging!
 
Cheers buddy!

Exactly man!

I'm in the same boat as you. I have steady gigs 3-4 nights a week (House of Blues, Disneyland etc, Irvine Improv etc.) and before the axe fx I would do the classic guitarist thing:

Skronk skronk skronk, chug, weeedly dee dee
*turn a couple knobs*
Skronk skronk, chug chug, weedley de dee
*turn a couple knobs*
Press a pedal, switch a channel, lather rinse repeat. Stand in front of my amp a little further away.

Then do soundcheck.

With the axe fx before a gig? Same damn thing. I just go to the front panel instead. You'll be fine, happy gigging!
 
Hi Thomas
There was and is no problem really. I think my query was being misunderstood.
I have my gig down pat. Have been playing for 30 years. I don't need advice there.
The query was basically to do with the FM curve in realtion to my CLR. The query was that if the FM curve
changes as you turn volume up, will I encounter the FM curve if I'm not turning up?
That's a simple query. It's not stopping me from playing or anything. I was simply curious that's all.
I don't need advice re my gig or IEM etc. I've been doing it for years.
It was a simple query re the FM curve in relation to my CLR.
The forum says to create your AXE patches at gig level otherwise if you create them at bedroom level, when you go live
your sounds will brighten up as you turn up etc ( the dreaded FM curve rears it's head)
So I was asking if I DON'T turn up and my stage volume stays at bedroom level (coz I have IEM and don't need to turn up and
the CLR is basically there for spill) I will possibly not encounter the FM curve.
Simple query.


Well !
Then what is the problem really. If you have in ear-monitoring I guess the only one hearing your amp would be the drummer, or singer,or bassplayer.
They usually don´t care much about the guitarsound. Also the in-ear system will sound so unnatural that this will probably not be an issue.
 
no matter what, make your presets at high volume. at this point, the PA court more then the stage volume
 
I guess you´re right.
If you don´t turn up you have actually created your sound at your gig-level.

Hi Thomas
There was and is no problem really. I think my query was being misunderstood.
I have my gig down pat. Have been playing for 30 years. I don't need advice there.
The query was basically to do with the FM curve in realtion to my CLR. The query was that if the FM curve
changes as you turn volume up, will I encounter the FM curve if I'm not turning up?
That's a simple query. It's not stopping me from playing or anything. I was simply curious that's all.
I don't need advice re my gig or IEM etc. I've been doing it for years.
It was a simple query re the FM curve in relation to my CLR.
The forum says to create your AXE patches at gig level otherwise if you create them at bedroom level, when you go live
your sounds will brighten up as you turn up etc ( the dreaded FM curve rears it's head)
So I was asking if I DON'T turn up and my stage volume stays at bedroom level (coz I have IEM and don't need to turn up and
the CLR is basically there for spill) I will possibly not encounter the FM curve.
Simple query.
 
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If you want some "in the ballpark" settings for global EQ, here's what worked for me for the last three years:
Small venues, big venues, rehearsal, I mostly run the same setting and it works great with very little adjustments. Flat EQ is used for bedroom levels.
Note that we are not a "loud" band in particular. Just at the volume of the acoustic drumset, never beyond. So if you play at 100 dB+ you might want more extreme settings.

38-63 Hz: -3.5 dB
125 Hz: -2.5 dB
250 Hz: -2.5/-1 dB (this is where the "boomyness" sits... adjust this to taste depending on the venue and the mix of the bass guitar)
500 Hz-6 kHz: 0 dB (a slight boost of +1/+1.5 dB to 1 kHz can improve clarity when you have trouble cutting through the mix)
> 6 kHz: -2.5 dB
 
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Very interesting link, thanks! Learning something new everyday around here :)

The key is using a calibrated reference level every time you work.

This gets your ear into the same "curve" in relation to fletcher munson. That way you can make predictable tone changes.

It also lets you make fair comparison against other records. Apples to apples in regards to your ears and fletcher munson.
 
The key is using a calibrated reference level every time you work.
This gets your ear into the same "curve" in relation to fletcher munson. That way you can make predictable tone changes.
It also lets you make fair comparison against other records. Apples to apples in regards to your ears and fletcher munson.

...OK thanks, so if I try to translate this to the stage... If I take a multi-track recording of our band playing live, play it back through a PA in our rehearsal space at say 83db, redial my guitar tones to suit that mix, then the guitar tone will sound right with the band through any PA at 83db?
 
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Would this mean that your CLR would need to be set to 83db at the gig? What if you needed a higher level due to stage volume?

No.

It means I learn how to make my presets consistent so they work louder or softer.

I am training my ears. It makes the sound predictable when I turn up or down. The sound isn't the same obviously at a different SPL. But I know what it's going to do.
 
I guess you´re right.
If you don´t turn up you have actually created your sound at your gig-level.

Thanks Thomas - that's what I was alluding to. I think the query just got mixed up with too much science!
I'm still gonna go into a rehearsal studio and have a jam before going live with the AXE. Playing live for 30 years
but I still have to respect the beast that is the Black Box!
 
...and to follow on, how does this apply to IEMs?

My approach is to create tones and a mix that hold up under different playback systems.

It's not perfect though and I might tweak efx levels or compression when I'm using in ears vs. wedges.

For a mixed record, it can sound good on ear buds, in your car on the radio, and in a sports arena on a huge PA.

How do they pull that off? Where the listeners are all using different playback systems and listening at different SPL levels but it still rocks? Everything from ear buds to stadiums?
 
The "Fletcher-Munson curve" is really a set of curves. These curves describe the differences in human hearing as loudness changes. There's no magic volume level at which F-M "happens;" the effect exists whenever the volume changes. The bigger the change, the bigger the effect.

If FOH is set to fill the house to a level of 100 dB, that's the volume in the house, whether the speakers are six feet off the floor or a hundred feet—there's no "in your face" factor in F-M. :) And the stage is going to be way louder than bedroom level, even if there are no monitors at all. You just can't fill a room with that much sound without having a bunch of it spill onto the stage.

Your monitors have to be louder than the house spill at your listening position, or they might as well not be there at all. And there's Fletcher-Munson—still affecting you, and still fully affecting the audience.


Check out the curves. Look at the difference in shape between bedroom level (~70 dB) and moderate gig level (~100 dB). There's no escaping it.

fletchermunson.gif

Also, there are better standards out there. ISO 226. One thing concerns me though: the graph lists Intensity (dB) which isn't the same as dB SPL.

To the OP: Yes you will experience a difference in your ears response due to a differing loudness. That's what the Fletcher-Munson curves try to represent. The degree of which will depend on the difference in the level (SPL) you dial in your tones at and the level you play at, hence the 'gig volume' advice. However, if it isn't broken don't fix it.

As for your second question in your OP, only you can answer that through experience.
 
For a mixed record, it can sound good on ear buds, in your car on the radio, and in a sports arena on a huge PA.

How do they pull that off? Where the listeners are all using different playback systems and listening at different SPL levels but it still rocks? Everything from ear buds to stadiums?
Once the song is mixed and played back, Fletcher-Munson affects all the instruments equally, so their relative mix stays the same.
 
One thing concerns me though: the graph lists Intensity (dB) which isn't the same as dB SPL.
It doesn't matter. These are equal-loudness curves. All that matters is the relative power at different frequencies. That's independent of the units used.
 
Once the song is mixed and played back, Fletcher-Munson affects all the instruments equally, so their relative mix stays the same.
V Interesting. So if you don't mind, just to recap, is it correct to suggest that if I dial our instrument tones to sound correct in context with our drummer at his average (or even loudest) levels acoustically, that Fletcher-Munson will affect all of our instruments equally thereafter as we climb in db through the PA? Would this also suggest that i do not necessarily have to be at gig volume to dial in 'live' tones? I.e. They just need to be correct in context with the loudest instrument before amplification?
 
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V Interesting. So if you don't mind, just to recap, is it correct to suggest that if I dial our instrument tones to sound correct in context with our drummer at his average (or even loudest) levels acoustically, that Fletcher-Munson will affect all of our instruments equally thereafter as we climb in db through the PA?
Yes and no. You have to dial in your tones in the context of the whole band, not just the drummer. Once you have a good mix dialed in, the guy at the desk can turn the whole band up or down (assuming he has control of the whole band) without adjusting the mix...if your stage volume is low enough to not significantly affect the house.

Once you start miking the drums, all bets are off, because the tone of a miked kit is very different from the tone of an unmiked kit.


Would this also suggest that i do not necessarily have to be at gig volume to dial in 'live' tones? I.e. They just need to be correct in context with the loudest instrument before amplification?
Your tones need to be correct in the context of the entire band, not just the drummer. And...

if you mic the drums, your tones need to be correct in the context of the drums as they appear in the house, PA included. And...

the room you're playing in has its own affect on tones and the mix.


Bottom line: trying to fix your tones in anything other than the situation you will be playing in will complicate your work and jeopardize your sound. It's not worth the trouble.
 
Hey Rex. I'm with you on all of that, thanks. Yea we mic everything, it just sounded like there might be another magic formulae in there for working with FM that I was unaware of! As this stage we mostly just EQ the PA to the room and don't do much with channel levels or EQ night to night...
 
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