Wish Fletcher-Munson Curve Block or Global Setting - Bedroom to Stage - Same Great Tone!

Ugly Bunny

Ugly Bunny

Power User
We're always told to dial in our tones at gig volume; this is great if you can do that, but, for instance, my band practices through headphones and the only time we're at "gig volume" is at the gig.

What if there was a 'smart' EQ block or global setting that you could just turn one dial up, say as your band got louder, and it would adjust the EQ appropriately to bring that great bedroom tone to the stage without needing to fuss with trial and error, twisting multiple knobs, etc? If the FM curve is mathematical, it should be relatively straight-forward to create a non-linear EQ knob/effect; sort of like each channel's tone knob on the GEQ section of the M/B Mark V - where the higher you turn the knob, the deeper of a "V" it creates in the EQ section.

I guess it would just be nice to have a quick solution to the FM curve that can be dialed in quickly and easily with little technical knowledge.

Who's with me? Hell, I don't know why no one's done this as a standalone pedal yet...
 
Just had a better idea: if the effect is implemented well (and why wouldn't it be, with Cliff at the helm?), it could just be a setting and then in the the Setup menu you could just apply the effect to any/all outputs so it wouldn't need to take up a block.

Setup Menu might look something like this:
-------------------------------------
Fletcher-Munson EQ:
Output 1 OFF
Output 2 ON
Output 3 OFF
Output 4 OFF
-------------------------------------

Then there could be another page to fine tune the settings or whatever.
 
Have you ever been in a room with several guitar players comparing their tones?

And - how would the axe know how loud you are playing at any given moment?
 
Sustainerplayer said:
how would the axe know how loud you are playing at any given moment?
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Yeah, that's why I've suggested several ways to implement it; manually, as a block etc.

unix-guy said:
Has been asked for many times... I don't think it's really as simple as people think.
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I'm sure you're right to a large extent; but if they can graph it and explain it, it seems like it should be pretty straight-forward to assign values of EQ freqs to values of an "amount" or "loudness" knob; Hell, I could make something like this in the Helix if I knew exactly what the freqs were (admittedly, I've done little research) or had any decent opportunity to ever get loud other than at gigs. They could even tie settings to fixed/given dB ratings (you'd have to use your own decibel meter, of course); so you could pick the setting that's for 104dB, for instance if that's the ambient volume.

Oh well. It's a wish; whether or not it will ever come true is another story; I know there are an insane amount of variables; that's why it needs to be "smart" so we only have to turn a knob :)
 
So, something as simple as an A/B EQ setting might help solve this. Hey, wait a minute, we've got scenes, with multiple channels! This could work. Also, it could help, w/changing guitars, from single coils to hum buckers.

Challenge: Let's see some patches that handle the Fletcher-Munson curve, as well as different guitars!
 
decreebass said:
They could even tie settings to fixed/given dB ratings (you'd have to use your own decibel meter, of course); so you could pick the setting that's for 104dB
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It makes sense like you describe it here. It could be a mode of the Global EQ, where loudness compensation curves are computed based on the knob setting you select (which selects an SPL value).

+1
 
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AlbertA said:
It makes sense like you describe it here. It could be a mode of the Global EQ, where loudness compensation curves are computed based on the knob setting you select (which selects an SPL value).

+1
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How would the Axe know the actual SPL level the playback system is putting out ? Different systems are going to output a different SPL, not to mention different frequency response at a given SPL, for the same input level.
 
Also you guys have to realize the the Equal loudness curves, aka FM curves, are simply averages based on a number of normal hearing listeners. Individual auditory perception is highly variable, and you can’t really look at a chart, think you need to bump 80hz by 10dB because your monitor level is 40 dB SPL, and think your going to be getting an honest representation of the tone. Your hearing may not be flat, your monitor system probably isn’t flat at 80hz, your room acoustics may be adding 10-15 dB low end boost etc. Your “correction” can actually make matters worse.
 
lqdsnddist said:
How would the Axe know the actual SPL level the playback system is putting out ? Different systems are going to output a different SPL, not to mention different frequency response at a given SPL, for the same input level.
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Yeah, in his proposal, that's all left to the user to figure out :)
 
lqdsnddist said:
Also you guys have to realize the the Equal loudness curves, aka FM curves, are simply averages based on a number of normal hearing listeners. Individual auditory perception is highly variable, and you can’t really look at a chart, think you need to bump 80hz by 10dB because your monitor level is 40 dB SPL, and think your going to be getting an honest representation of the tone. Your hearing may not be flat, your monitor system probably isn’t flat at 80hz, your room acoustics may be adding 10-15 dB low end boost etc. Your “correction” can actually make matters worse.
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Yeah, I'm aware of all that. Myself I would probably just stick with the current Global EQ, but this is not my wish request :)
 
My view is when we played with real amps we usually did this at rehearsal with gig volume and knew where the level knobs and master and gain knobs needed to be for live gigs vs taking the amp home to practice (probably rarely done).

So we need to know where amp level needs to be as well on our virtual amp for gig volume too. The AX doesn’t hear the loudness and how can it automatically set this if it doesn’t have a listening mode.

So I say set your patches up for live at gig levels and then when playing at home just use output level round physical buttons on front panel to turn it down for the headphones or monitors used at home.
 
I know it has been requested many times. I know it isn't straightforward, but adding a sweepable FM curve doesn't sound like rocket science.

Modeling amps... THAT is rocket science. :)
 
lqdsnddist said:
How would the Axe know the actual SPL level the playback system is putting out ? Different systems are going to output a different SPL, not to mention different frequency response at a given SPL, for the same input level.
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I agree there's no way to know but a simple EQ curve compensation based on the average response of say "quiet, medium, loud" could be implemented on the Global EQs. Not a perfect solution but it could be an option if you want a quick fix. Building presets at gig volume is ideal, imo.
 
I don’t think anyone is saying a perfect ‘loudness’ control is possible but a useful one certainly is; there is plenty of precedent for such a control/algorithm in consumer stereo amplification. Now, whether this is worth it for the Axe, I cannot say... depends on the R&D and whether or not users would find it too hard to use,etc...

BUT FWIW, I would probably use it all the time because I tend to play either fully loud or fully quiet so I’d only really need to get it tweaked for 2 settings. :D

This article is a pretty good treatment of the issue:
https://www.extron.com/company/article.aspx?id=loudnesscontrol_ts

DSP: Just Made for Loudness
Modern implementations of loudness equalization circuits fall comfortably into the realm of digital signal processing, or DSP. Within the vast possibilities afforded by digital processing, the creation of filters capable of replicating a near-exact compensating response is not only possible, but generally straightforward. DSP-based algorithms allow for continuously adaptable functions that will compensate in real time as sound pressure level is varied over its normal excursion
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Understood that in a stereo the power amp ‘knows’ where the volume is set on the axe this could be tied to a controller the user adjusts... On my Axe the out 1 is my master for the whole system which is a common config... Also as other noted you could just have 3 ‘operating point’ settings.

Maybe I will play with the filters a bit and setup a personal ‘soft/loud’ curve.
 
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Watching this thread with anticipation....
Idea has long been mulled here on the forum.
I kind of like the idea whereby say the output block has options for various loudness/volume set up's, combined with various room types....
The selector could function a bit like the microphone option in the cab block of the II (Which I used all the time FWIW)
 
Guys, trust me in this, I did extensive experiments in grad school on equal loudness perception, with an interest in specifically how it relates to guitar.

Provided your guitar range is a typical 100-6000ish Hertz, and your “quiet” playing is at least 45 dB or so, which is a bit below typical conversation level, your getting a pretty linear loudness response across that frequency spectrum. I’ve done my own experiments but look at the existing curves that are published with regard to loudness perception and frequency range.

This is simply not a big issue in lIke 99% of situations. It’s been totally blown out of proportion on gear forums by people repeating what someone else said, and without a real understanding of human auditory perception.

It’s not equal loudness that is the issue in most cases either. It’s the inherent issues of monitoring on essentially flat systems like desktop monitors, CLr’s et al at home or practice, then running through a FOH system. That system is going to be anything but flat, and often guys at the board even further tweak it away from that, and this is on top of the room acoustics etc.

Doesn’t matter if you dialed in your patch at 50dB or 100dB, it’s going to sound different though a FOH system because they aren’t flat, and there is no reference for them.

And equal loudness curve isn’t going to address this and will make matters worse as often as it helps.

I’m saying this as someone who has a doctorate in audiology, who has a background running live sound, and as a guitarist. I understand exactly where people are coming from, and because the issue is personally important to me I wanted to verify things myself with the equipment I had at my disposal.

There is simply no magic button or knob that is going to make your tones transfer perfectly from what you hear in your bedroom to a stage.
 
This is probably the most important thing you said (in addition to an amazing resume). I hear more reports of people using the Helix or Axe and have been told by sound men that their tone was great and perfect and easy to work with. You rarely hear someone say, "My tone was COMPLETELY different once I got to the gig." (Occasionally you do hear that, but not too frequently).

I still maintain that there's probably something that Cliff could come up with in this arena, but I guess it's not a huge concern, and like you said, probably blown out of proportion on forums.
 
decreebass said:
I still maintain that there's probably something that Cliff could come up with in this arena
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I agree 110%

For example. I have two full set ups in two different countries. thats 2x Axe FX II XL's and 2 x Axe Fx III's.
I have a set up lounge in both locations, where I use exclusively headphones.... I then run the patches through to a sound room where the sound then comes from monitors at volume (enough so you feel the sound).

I run the same headphones on both set ups. Sennheiser Hd800s. However in the "sound rooms" I have different speakers in each location.
In the UK I run a set of Bowers and Wilkins, then in Gibraltar I run a set of KRK 8 inch..
In all honesty the B&W's sound better to me... slightly, but the point is..... I need to adjust the presets to compensate for the Fletcher Munson effect.
I'm now at the point where I know my patches inside out, and know what is needed to get the headphone tone coming through at volume in the sound room, usually the reverb and delay trails need to be reduced for the speaker set up, I also need to adjust the high end and clarity of the amp/cab...Always need to boost around 8k and beyond and get a little more bite/chime from the tone...

Then the higher the volume - The more I need to compensate

I would like to see something in the output block which kind of puts you in the ball park for various combinations of volume/room size/type. of course its not going to sound exact, but what the hell.... Who said it's going to sound terrible? Hell It may even add something to the tone.... For the better... After all this box is a tool which does the whole virtual realm of things beautifully, so bring it on...!
 
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