Fizz...

T

tolchocks

Member
Hi everybody, I got my axe 2 xl a few days ago and Im very happy with it. Im posting this because i have a couple of questions. I can get very good tones out of the axe but one thing that is ALWAYS a problem (in distorted tones) is the fizz. Fizz is NOT any high frecuency content. In fact, grab an awesome pro guitar recording into your DAW and boost the highs.. Yeah, it sounds thin, but "good". Now do the same with a medium-distorted 800 from the axe. See any difference? The character of the high frec is different, its like "grain", "sand", i dont know. Thats what make a guitar tone sound like its not cutting in the mix. This happens to digital modelers and also some real amps so my question is.. What are the techniques to get rid of that stuff? We (yeah, we all!, trust me) want a clear top end, like a knife. I managed to get rid of it by doing some tricks with reverbs (early reflections) and pre gain EQ but it would be nice to see other approaches. Comment real amp techniques too. It really is the most important thing in a guitar tone....Besides, tonematching wont fix the problem since it only matches EQ.
BTW, another topic...Why the axe has so much bass frecs?
Like I said, Im happy with the axe because the quality you can achieve is awesome, the harmonics, the response...But its wierd to load an 800 and it sounds nothing like a real one until you cut all the bass and the fizz.. Because of those it initially sounds like a scooped (badly done) metal tone...
Excuse my english, not my first language...

Greetz
 
LOW PASS BETWEEN 7000\10.000 hz ... it works and can be done in different way on the axe .... first and simple in the cab block .
Distorted patch always with a High Cut at list at 10.000hz or less
 
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tolchocks said:
In fact, grab an awesome pro guitar recording into your DAW and boost the highs.. Yeah, it sounds thin, but "good". Now do the same with a medium-distorted 800 from the axe. See any difference?
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Now grab any awesome guitar amp, dial in some gain, and boost the highs. There's fizz. :)

With the "real" amp, you're playing with a lot of volume. Your ears accept the fizz as "part of the loud." At low volume, you're not expecting it. When you're playing in a band, the fizz helps you cut through, and the fizz starts to sound like clarity when it's in the mix. If you take too much away, your tone can disappear in the mix.


tolchocks said:
BTW, another topic...Why the axe has so much bass frecs?
Click to expand...
If you have too much bass, and you can't dial it out with the basic tone controls, the first question I think of is "What are you playing through that has so much bass?" How does the sound get from the Axe to your ears?

Another question is, "Have you tried other cabs?"
 
Try some IR that is not shot with the V30's. Currently I am so happy with the Creambacks (filters at 120/12000).
 
Rex said:
Now grab any awesome guitar amp, dial in some gain, and boost the highs. There's fizz. :)

With the "real" amp, you're playing with a lot of volume. Your ears accept the fizz as "part of the loud." At low volume, you're not expecting it. When you're playing in a band, the fizz helps you cut through, and the fizz starts to sound like clarity when it's in the mix. If you take too much away, your tone can disappear in the mix.



If you have too much bass, and you can't dial it out with the basic tone controls, the first question I think of is "What are you playing through that has so much bass?" How does the sound get from the Axe to your ears?

Another question is, "Have you tried other cabs?"
Click to expand...

What Rex said ^

And i allways use the PT ir to get more mid and highs/fizz. With any amp and tone.

When i went from real amp i allways thought that the ir's did not have enough top end to cut trough in a live setting.
Of course, when you cranck it Mr FM sends all those freq's back in.
 
Rex said:
Now grab any awesome guitar amp, dial in some gain, and boost the highs. There's fizz. :)

With the "real" amp, you're playing with a lot of volume. Your ears accept the fizz as "part of the loud." At low volume, you're not expecting it. When you're playing in a band, the fizz helps you cut through, and the fizz starts to sound like clarity when it's in the mix. If you take too much away, your tone can disappear in the mix.



If you have too much bass, and you can't dial it out with the basic tone controls, the first question I think of is "What are you playing through that has so much bass?" How does the sound get from the Axe to your ears?

Another question is, "Have you tried other cabs?"
Click to expand...

Yeah man, I agree with you in most points, Im not someone who doesnt know the basics... Im aiming more to the character of the high end. In fact, real amps also sound like that (as I said, the axe dialed correctly is increibly close) but theres a difference when you compare the initial settings. Making some tests I have come to the conclusion that it is because the axe has the sound of a very close miked cab, and in those conditions every amp will have the "sand" in the top. Its something like lack of "depth". Anyone with some mixing knowledge knows the importance of the ambience, and to let the instruments a lil back. Its like having someone sing in a microfone very close. It wont sound right (not only for the proximity effect), but because it lacks depth. The solution (in the axe, and also real world), is in early reflections. This can be achieved with two mics, a good short reverb, etc. Its a complex subject and Im willing to hear opinions on this.

Greetz
 
tolchocks said:
...I have come to the conclusion that it is because the axe has the sound of a very close miked cab,...
Click to expand...
That's because most IRs are captured with a close mic. There are far-field IRs available, as well as rear-captured and room-captured.

Also, you can dial in the proximity effect to taste in the Cab block.
 
put your ear where the mic is usually positioned on a cab....bet you hear the same things...have to accept the new paradigm.
 
Ownhammer modern IR mix. done. they have mixes of speakers mic'd with several mics.....and some sound just like an amp in the room. no fizz.
 
Fizz.

Do a search. Every single time it's boiled down to something in your chain. Levels, IR, whatever.

If you can't get 'cut' from the stock 800...that's impressive (and indicative of something not quite right.)

Check first levels, then IR's, and ONLY IR's. It's there you'll find your chi.
 
Re:something not quite right...
Ya, funny, the Brit 800 factory preset (15.02) sounds just about perfect without any tweaking at all from where i'm sitting :pride: - on a couple different guitars. I hope it doesn't change much with 15.03 which i plan to update to later this week. :encouragement:
 
The problem is the IR you use not in the Axe.
Try some IRs until you find the right one for you.
 
O-kay, this may sound a little on the extreme side to some, and arguably depends on the entire chain you use (pickups-amp-cap-fx), but this is my recipe to get studio-fizz-less tones:
- amp&cab to your liking
- depending on bass character of the cab, raise low-cut to at least 120Hz
- amp (crucial): character -5 to -6, character frequency 6000Hz, level down!, gain up, master to your liking, employ cut & raise the mids, play with presence&definition to further fatten or brighten the tone

Be warned tough, this recipe may render you inaudible in the live mix! Up with the volume and (again) raise the low cut of the cab if you like the tone tough...

My 2¢. Good luck in finding THE tone :)
 
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tolchocks said:
.......grab an awesome pro guitar recording......
Click to expand...

This is exactly it - 'awesome pro guitar recording's have been mixed professionally to sit within the context of a whole mix.

When you create a basic axe preset with amp and cab all you're effectively doing is throwing a mic in front of a cab in various ways depending on the IR. Whether a pro engineer is using a conventional amp/cab setup or going direct through the axe, they're going to be applying a lot of post processing to make it gel. It's not uncommon to see long chains with several EQ adjustments, compression, multiband compression and a bit of ambience reverb. This is the difference between your axefx results and a guitar stem from a commercial release.

You need the fizz in some amount to be able to cut into the mix, and it's all there - but it's up to you to shape and mould it yourself.

Having said that, try some of the 'mix' IRs in the axe. They've already had a fair bit of EQ post processing done on them. The petrucci V30 one seems to always do it for me.
 
Tolchocks…. In any discussion of the AFX you'll find it helpful to assume that the unit sounds exactly like an amp and cab with a mic thrown in front - because, frankly - it does. Just assume any tone problems you are having are exactly what you would be facing in the same situation with a real amp and look at it from that perspective. It's a fantastic educational tool apart from anything else.
 
+1 to that Vinnie.

Mixing, mastering etc is an artform in itself. Takes years to learn and longer (a life) to master.

Not many masters, but many just bellow... IMHO..
 
I don't understand what people refer to as "fizz" but everytime I dial the axe I dont need to tweak the eq that much to achieve great tone
 
triski said:
I don't understand what people refer to as "fizz" but everytime I dial the axe I dont need to tweak the eq that much to achieve great tone
Click to expand...
To most people, "fizz" is a high-end raspiness that you get when playing with gain; its character doesn't appear to depend very much on what note is played. A certain amount of it is required for a good gain tone.
 
tolchocks said:
Yeah man, I agree with you in most points, Im not someone who doesnt know the basics... Im aiming more to the character of the high end. In fact, real amps also sound like that (as I said, the axe dialed correctly is increibly close) but theres a difference when you compare the initial settings. Making some tests I have come to the conclusion that it is because the axe has the sound of a very close miked cab, and in those conditions every amp will have the "sand" in the top. Its something like lack of "depth". Anyone with some mixing knowledge knows the importance of the ambience, and to let the instruments a lil back. Its like having someone sing in a microfone very close. It wont sound right (not only for the proximity effect), but because it lacks depth. The solution (in the axe, and also real world), is in early reflections. This can be achieved with two mics, a good short reverb, etc. Its a complex subject and Im willing to hear opinions on this.

Greetz
Click to expand...

I'm with you on this.

A ton of great guitar records involve room microphones. They add complexity and 3D. I would say the older the track possibly they would use more room than direct. There are exceptions of course but the popular way to track electric guitars was with multiple room mics and direct microphones (and directly into the desk more than you would think).

In the Fractal, that is really up to the Reverb block and maybe the room parameter in the Cab block. The Cab block is not really going for true room mics baked into the IR's themselves; as in how room mics would be used to track guitars in a studio. E.g. one mic 4-8 feet from the cab and another 15-20 feet from the cab.

But the UR IR format does allow *some* room reflections into the picture. Try as many UR IR's as you can before giving up on that route. You might find one closer.

I'm hoping we get something like the Logidy Epsi pedal in the AxeFx. That one can do room IR's in real time. In stereo I believe.
 
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