Fishman Triple Play impressions

jefferski

jefferski

Fractal Fanatic
Anyone else here use one of these?

My impressions: very mixed. I got it primarily for recording; so I could play more complex parts than I can play on a keyboard. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to track very well, especially on faster runs and patches that have a sharp attack. Slow parts are decent - flutes, pads, horns - when I'm using them for embellishment or for slow lead melodies, but even those parts don't always track well and I can probably play most of them on keys anyway...

There are online demos where people rip fast piano/organ/sax lines that sound as good as a keyboard or horn player but I can't get anything close to that even though I can play similar parts on the guitar. I'm sure part of it is my technique; the fishman takes every glitch, ghost note, and finger movement as input and tries to produce a note. But I can also play some fast lines pretty cleanly and they still don't track well. Also, I'll use it for piano arpeggios, simple fingerstyle and things like that... not fast at all, but it misses or misreads a lot of the notes. I've also tweaked the various setup options - sensitivity, pickup height, etc, and that hasn't made a significant difference. Also, this isn't a latency problem, it's tracking. Latency on my system is pretty minor.

So, what are your thoughts? Is this really a technique thing, or are we still really dealing with an imperfect guitar-to-midi solution? Or is there a setting I'm missing? The online demos make me think it is possible to really get good sound and tracking out of this thing, and maybe I really need to clean up my playing style to make it work. It's probably the best out there but ...
 
Most of those videos feature Burr Jhonson, who is so phenomenal ad adapting his technique to midi guitar that he is the go-to guy for showing this kind of stuff off. If you made a new midi guitar system you would want him to demonstrate it at NAMM too.
 
LOL. So what you're saying is if I practice long enough I can be as good at it as he is... but in the meantime the TriplePlay ain't all it's cracked up to be.
 
There's no gate but there is a sensitivity setting. I tried lowering it but not much luck. Maybe playing around w/ the volume knob will help too, but I think it's just a volume... not like a guitar pickups' volume.
 
I have one. It's pretty tricky to get it working smoothly. I finally figured out that when I finger-pick, I brush the string with the pad of my finger before the nail plucks. It was causing false triggering. Fingerpicks cleaned it up quite a bit. It did take some concerted practice cleaning up my technique.

Reducing sensitivity helps, also.
 
That helps... I'll experiment some more before I decide if I'm going to keep it.

I actually got a good deal on one of the Strats that come w/ TP pre-installed. I like that it has everything onboard, and I love the Pearly Gates in the bridge. It's a Mexi-strat but plays pretty good... unfortunately the other 2 pups are the noiseless and are pretty lifeless and uninteresting. Plus, there's no tone controls... just 3 volumes (pickups, TP pickup, and headphone jack). If I loved the guitar I'd be willing to keep it and learn how to get the most out of the TP, but I'm thinking of returning it and just getting the hardware.
 
scorch said:
I have one. It's pretty tricky to get it working smoothly. I finally figured out that when I finger-pick, I brush the string with the pad of my finger before the nail plucks. It was causing false triggering. Fingerpicks cleaned it up quite a bit. It did take some concerted practice cleaning up my technique.
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Historically, MIDI guitar systems have been unfriendly to fingerstyle.
 
Crandles said:
I've seen some pretty cool and creative stuff done with them. There's a guy named Ben Levin who's really tapping into it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIe8ePEH9WE.
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Man, I'd like to have that patch!

luke said:
I'd tend to disagree. Here is a track I did in 1993 fingerstyle:
MP3 Player SoundClick
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Beautiful Luke!

What I'm noticing in all these vids, whether Ben, Burr Johnson, or whoever is that they are very careful with their picking... they don't rest their palm on the bridge, don't brush strings, don't pre-fret with the left hand, etc. Of course it's hard to tell at first because they've developed their style to where it's become easy for them. So I guess more practice is in the works! I'll bet it will make me a better all-around player anyway ;-)
 
Rex said:
Nice work, luke. But I'm not sure what I'm listening for. The MIDI-like parts I can hear are single-line melodies or chords. The only fingerstyle I'm hearing sounds like an actual guitar.
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All if the keyboards parts are me using a Korg 01W/R via an old Roland midi pickup system. The flute and oboe might have been picked but the rest was all finger style.
 
luke said:
All if the keyboards parts are me using a Korg 01W/R via an old Roland midi pickup system. The flute and oboe might have been picked but the rest was all finger style.
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Maybe we're meaning different things when we say "fingerstyle." In the case of MIDI guitar, I'm referring (maybe inaccurately) to the style of music usually played with the fingers, as opposed to only-fingers-but-any-style. By that I mean arpeggios and simultaneous notes, played with some degree of rapidity, such as the acoustic guitar in your recording (or is that actually a synthesized acoustic guitar?).

My (admittedly limited) experience with MIDI guitar, including the Roland pickup, is that you have to pay extra attention to picking precision and limit your dynamics to get the notes you want without generating unintended notes.
 
I didn't buy the FTP, I have owned and used many guitar synths, still have an Axon AX-100mkII (same designer as FTP, older design)

Intonation and tuning are extremely important. Pure nickle strings can pump more signal into the magnetic piezo hex pickup.
Clean new strings helps because dirt on strings throws off true intonation.
Whammy bars don't really add much good to guitar synth plus tuning issues.
Ebony fingerboards are an excellent choice for guitar synth.

Setting up hardware or software synths for 6 multi-timberal synths tracks better because each string gets its own synth/voices/pitch bend, it does make a difference over simpler 6 strings triggering one synth, all strings share same pitch bend!
Also setting pitch bend range to a high level makes for more accuracy and pitch bending/vibrato resolution. i.e., -24/24, -12/12 is way better than -2/2.

As you can see this complicates things. Something like a string symphony is really better with six strings = six synths.
For fun sometimes I'll get a cool synth bass sound happening and because I'm playing my guitar like a bass, its mostly one note at a time, no need for overkill setting up six strings = six synths.

If I want a Piano = no pitch bends.
I think many guys that get the most out of their guitar synth realize learning music styles akin to instruments pays off, for example Brass and Woodwind players often need to breathe :ugeek. and use a lot of dynamics. Learning licks a Clarinet would play helps those Clarinet patches.
 
Rex said:
Maybe we're meaning different things when we say "fingerstyle." In the case of MIDI guitar, I'm referring (maybe inaccurately) to the style of music usually played with the fingers, as opposed to only-fingers-but-any-style. By that I mean arpeggios and simultaneous notes, played with some degree of rapidity, such as the acoustic guitar in your recording (or is that actually a synthesized acoustic guitar?).

My (admittedly limited) experience with MIDI guitar, including the Roland pickup, is that you have to pay extra attention to picking precision and limit your dynamics to get the notes you want without generating unintended notes.
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The acoustic is a Taylor 912-CE. I played the exact same things under the guitar part using the Korg, to add body. The only time I differentiated was the obvious solo sections, where I simply played the synch an extra time. This was back using 2" tape, 24 track, so it was difficult to get it all on the tape.
 
Agree with Rexx on all those points. The main thing is that you have to be (or plan to get) comfortable with your synth (hardware or software) and how to tweak it to work with the setting on your FTP or any other guitar synth. For the record I've owned units from Yamaha & Roland, and still own an Axon and now the Fishman.

The best way to describe it is as a symbiotic relationship. Sometime tweaking a setting on the guitar synth is best, but often the best tweak is on the synth side. Frequently though to get optimal tracking, it's a combination of both.

Peace,
Karma
 
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luke said:
The acoustic is a Taylor 912-CE. I played the exact same things under the guitar part using the Korg, to add body.
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If that's a guitar tone doubled with a synth, then that is indeed some tight playing.
 
Rex said:
If that's a guitar tone doubled with a synth, then that is indeed some tight playing.
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I played the exact same thing on my electric that had the midi pick-up. Of course I changed which synth patch I used between sections to add variety without having to compose yet another part. We didn't decide to add the synth back ground until two days before we entered the studio, so I had to keep it simple. I recorded the guitar part using a hand held cassette player and then played along to it with the synth changing patches until I came upon ones that worked. Then I just wrote them down, 126 for the verse, 167 for the bridge, etc...went in and laid them down in two hours. Remember, this was back when studio time at a major studio was $400/hour.
 
Just throwing in my 2 cents. I've been messing with midi guitar since Jan. 2012 (not that long but alas a few years here). One main big thing I failed to really set correctly when I had an AXON ax50 was the pitch bend settings on the instrument ie (yamaha motif rack). This is hugely important if you want to place synth leads and what not. I actually have pretty good success with my FTP running mainstage. I do think it still performs its best when in hardware mode going into a hardware synth. Still debating just switching back from my macbook setup with mainstage to a yamaha motif rack xs or something.

I'm using mine on my godin lgx-sa and it definitely does pretty well but I have tweaked the trigger settings a lot for each patch setup. I never really think I'm going to be using it for piano though. Many people have said just work up those keyboard skills instead. I've been doing this all along with midi guitar. I always bring my midi keyboard so that I can play plarts with that as well. Playing midi guitar is a huge technique thing though.

Like Karma said though you really do have to tweak each patch to get it working its best. Both the FTP patch and the synth patch. And unless you're burr johnson you shouldn't over use it haha.

My favorite patch to use is for DREAM ON by Aerosmith. I have a strings and harpsichord on it along with the pedal hold to play the intro lick.
 
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