First time live with JBL PRX612M

[youngmic]

So I played a set tonight with the 2 PRX612M's. Advance warning: this'll be a long post. I'm still very new to this thing and need some advice. Go easy on me. : )

My current patches were dialed in at home using Event PS8's. They're pretty basic (in other words, not much dialing):

1. Vox, 2x12 Brit, U87, bass 5, mid 6.5, treble 5, presence 0, no eq, light delay.
2. Egnater, 4x12 25W, R121, bass 5.5, mid 7, treble 5.5, presence -10, no eq, light delay.
3. Brown, 4x12 25W, R121, bass 5, mid 6, treble 4, presence -5, no eq, light delay.
4. Marsha BE, 4x12 25W, R121, bass 4.5, mid 6, treble 3.5, presence -10, no eq, light delay.

Pretty straight forward. I confess that I'm trying to emulate my Egnater TOL100 - mostly for the sake of comfort zone. I've been playing in the same room (a small church auditorium) for a couple of years. Before the Axe Fx, I'd put the Egnater and a THD 2X12 w/Longhorns in a side room and mic it with an SM57 (at the grill and between the cap edge and cone edge). I'd push the low mids in the house and monitor mix to get the tone I wanted. The Egnater tone settings were bass and mid at about 2 o'clock (at about 7 or 8 ), treble at 9 o'clock (at about 3). I had an intelliverb in the loop of the Egnater.

So....back to tonight. I've been playing for years but feel in some ways like I'm starting over. There are some distinct differences in the character of the sound that have me feeling hesitant in my playing. It's not that I'm not used to the monitor in your face sound. Again, the THD cab was in another room and the main sound was from a Yamaha floor wedge (EQ'd). But what I'm missing is the ambience and the blend. Is this what folks call that "in the room" sound? Not sure. But my experience was that the tone was very much more isolated, dry, "in your face", and did not feel like it was blending. I was either too loud or not loud enough - I just couldn't get a good level. It felt like when I was at a level that seemed appropriate, I couldn't get any definition and my sound just washed out with the band. But if I was loud enough to hear the nuances in tone and playing, I was too loud to blend well. Not sure why this wasn't the experience before.

Also, in the band mix, my patches sounded generally nasal and too "midrangy". Yes, I know all the patches above have the mids dialed up a tad. Again, I set my tones with the Events and felt that I had dialed in something I'd like. I compared them to the JBL's at home and they seemed equivalent. But live, with the band, they sounded nasal and harsh.

I know this is going to take work. I have been completely and immensely enjoying the Axe Fx at home. I have played more in the last several months than I have in years. It's truly an inspiring piece of gear. I say this to say that I'm sold and committed to working this out. But it's also clear that I have a ways to go and that I'm kind of out of my league as far as FRFR, EQ, speakers, mics, etc. (I've had the same rig for over 10 years.)

This really is a strange new land for us old guitarists. I'm glad this community exists so that there's a place to get some perspective. Would appreciate any thoughts, guidance, advice, etc. you all can offer.

I should probably ask some specific questions...

Is this the speakers or my patches? How do I know?
I know I should be using PEQ or Graphic EQ more - something I've never done. Should I, and if so, how does one start?
Would EQ be required with any FRFR?
Is it possible that the room and live situation resulted in my perception that the mids were accentuated? This was not the case at home.

Thanks.

 

[rhequiem]

I am fairly certain that many people use the PEQ blocking trick to balance out their sound when playing live, using the stock Fractal IRs. I have been using Ownhammer IRs lately, and they seem to not require this so much. I don't know much about this, so maybe someone else can chime in. As an aside, maybe it might be worth trying a couple farfield Ir's. I believe these help to come closer to capturing that "in the room" sound. There are a few farfield IRs in the stock cabs, though I can't remember which they are. Maybe someone else can chime in and provide that info.

 

[Morphosis]

Since i concentrate on less amps and less different Cab sims with my ( for me ) new db M-12-4 and for A/B little H&K L.U.C.A.S Performer PA i learned this:
- judge your highs and lows, our tone on rehearsal volume.
- Axe FX IR´s seems to have much lowend, danger of boominess is higher than third party IR´s (i use RW)
- Axe FW IR`s sounds to me often "nasal", "boxy" ... can`t describe it ... compared to Red Wirez
- i leave globals on DB M12-4 flat, but pull down all the 63kHz in the global1 going to FOH for similiar bottom end.

so, i experiment with the different mic distances & positions of the RW bundle and find out, that i do NOT need any PEQ (high / lowcut) when i use sm57 cone in3 position.

so, at the and i came up with similiar experiences and solutions like YEK and SCOTT P. i think: the right cab IR is the key to your tone AND also for the right EQ ... so try different IRs ...test them with a neutral amp EQing... i bet, you learn a lot!

 

[Rex]

But what I'm missing is the ambience and the blend.

The missing ambience is probably the room reflections you used to get when miking your cab in the side room. You can add that in with reverb if it's important to you, but added reverb can muddy you sound, depending on the band and the acoustics of the room you're playing in.

...did not feel like it was blending. I was either too loud or not loud enough - I just couldn't get a good level. It felt like when I was at a level that seemed appropriate, I couldn't get any definition and my sound just washed out with the band.

It sounds like your tone is competing with the other instruments on the highs and lows. The PEQ blocking trick that rhequiem mentioned should help with that.

Also, in the band mix, my patches sounded generally nasal and too "midrangy".

Dial down the mids. I don't mean to be snarky, but that should fix the problem. A tone that sounds one way at home will sound very different at the venue, with other instruments playing.

I know I should be using PEQ or Graphic EQ more - something I've never done. Should I, and if so, how does one start?

Start with the PEQ blocking technique (see the WIKI). Beyond that, dial in the best tones you can — in the setting you'll be playing in — with the amp sim's EQ controls, before you apply additional EQ.

Would EQ be required with any FRFR?

No FRFR is truly flat-response. Every speaker will be different. The house speakers will be different, too. And every room will have a different response.

Is it possible that the room and live situation resulted in my perception that the mids were accentuated?

Very possible.

Tweak some more, and let us know how it goes.

 

[tubetonez]

My first thought is the Global EQ, have you tried this? If possible, run OUT2 to your stage monitors and OUT1 to FOH. Separately audition each, and adjust EQ while playing with the band.

I would also suggest trying the stock greenback cab for those amps used for crunch/OD/Lead. I've experimented with most of the stock cabs, to my ears there is a big difference with this cab. Also try the various mic sims, SM57, no mic, etc.

I doubt that you were hearing much room interaction from the close mic'd cab with your old set up.

 

[youngmic]

Thank you all for the very good suggestions. I have some work to do and some tips to follow. Let me ask another question. I have an underlying fear that I chose the wrong speaker. I did the best that I could but am seriously doubting my choice. I'm struggling with three options:

1. The PRX612 is not the best in the price range. Maybe I should've gone with the 12ma even though I liked the JBL better than the 8ma in an audition.
2. I'm going to have the same struggle with anything in this range and should buy something in the high end range (e.g. the Turbosound NUQ12DP), even though I can't audition it.
3. I'm going to have a similar struggle with all of these solutions so I should stick with what I have now, tweak my patches/global settings until I have the experience and discernment, then make a decision about whether what I have is sufficient.

All of these are driven by the return period on the JBL's expiring this coming Friday. : )

Thanks again for all your help.

Mike

EDIT: Just realized I never asked a question. Which one should I consider true: 1, 2, or 3? Thanks. Any other comments also welcome!

 

[Finnster]

Thank you all for the very good suggestions. I have some work to do and some tips to follow. Let me ask another question. I have an underlying fear that I chose the wrong speaker. I did the best that I could but am seriously doubting my choice. I'm struggling with three options:

1. The PRX612 is not the best in the price range. Maybe I should've gone with the 12ma even though I liked the JBL better than the 8ma in an audition.
2. I'm going to have the same struggle with anything in this range and should buy something in the high end range (e.g. the Turbosound NUQ12DP), even though I can't audition it.
3. I'm going to have a similar struggle with all of these solutions so I should stick with what I have now, tweak my patches/global settings until I have the experience and discernment, then make a decision about whether what I have is sufficient.

All of these are driven by the return period on the JBL's expiring this coming Friday. : )

Thanks again for all your help.

Mike

EDIT: Just realized I never asked a question. Which one should I consider true: 1, 2, or 3? Thanks. Any other comments also welcome!

Did you end up keeping the JBL's? I bought the new EV LiveX and considered the JBL. Any luck with them? Did changing IR's help?

I am curious. Thanks

 

[youngmic]

I returned the JBL's. They didn't work for me.