First gig with the Axe, and it sounded terrible

[Martyntb]

Pete Thorn tonematched his amps in the studio. It's a studio tone which doesn't necessarily translates well to a stage tone.
I love these when playing @home, but they would be much too bright for me to use on stage through a FR monitor.

Yek is right. Pete thorns patches are really bright. Probably well suited to a Les Paul or a guitar with humbuckers. Yep it's a final mix sound, and in Pete's hands sounds great. After downloading his patches I decided his sound didn't suit my playing at all. Pete was worried about giving up his sounds but what works for one player won't necessarily work for another. I think the guys on this site know their stuff and it's a pleasure to hear their opinions on the Axe 2. I feel I've learnt a lot by reading all the posts. This unit is life changing for me as a player!!!

 

[jeppekristoffer]

There are some misunderstandings regarding FRFR and high pass/low block and low pass/high block.

Maybe I can explain some of these issues for some of you.

The electric guitar itself produce frequencies in the range of roughly 82- 1396Hz but with harmonics, the upper range extends easily to 20000Hz.

The IR-impulse response, is a representation of a given guitar cab and speaker/speakers in terms o amplitude and phase for all the frequencies that the speaker/cab combination can reproduce if you use a flat measurement mic.
The IR can be further shaped by the use of different, mics and placement and preamps and eq.

When making a preset in the Axe Fx and you would like to play through a FRFR system (PA or your personal FRFR monitor) you of course need an Amp block, and a Cab block with an IR to simulate your favourite guitar cab.

The Amp block shape your tone and boost and lower different frequencies, and also high pass and low pass your guitar tone making the range narrower(simplified explanation)

In the Cab block, depending on your choosen IR your tone is further shaped and high passed and low passed making the tone even narrower. But the highest frequencies can still be in the range of 8-10 kHz.

If your preset in the Axe contains an Amp and Cab block you have shaped it to contain frequencies in the range of 60-10000 Hz. The 60 Hz and its harmonics (120,180,240...Hz) is due to the hum introduced by your outlet.

If you put this shaped tone through a PA system or a FRFR monitor and those are flat(don't shape the input, non of them are truly flat but some are almost flat, the rest often boost the lows and highs). Then you get what you put in, which is your guitar tone.

Since many FRFR monitors have boosted highs and lows your guitar tone doesn't sound as it was intended to.
But important, the FRFR monitor or PA does NOT add any frequencies that were not there to begin with even though they are capable if reproducing very low and high frequencies 20-20000 Hz (Full Range).

The reason that people often low block/high pass and high block low pass their tones is because the would like their tones to fit better in the mix and not to interfere with the rest of the instruments.

But yes, if you have a FRFR monitor or PA that colours your tone too much then you maybe need to decrease the amplitudes for the lower and higher frequencies to remove excessive lows and highs.

Sorry for the long post!

 

[reclavea]

It

Yes, but we're at fw 11.? 2nd generation axe fx. The sims have been close enough to not include excessive bass or treble for quite some time. Plus specific controls within the amp itself exist to compensate for different ir's and speaker systems.


Fractal's ir capturing process may be suspect? And they include these "suspect" ir's in their flagship product? Surely not.


Wait a minute, I thought it was virtually indistinguishable from the amps it simulates, ...what with mimic and all that.

So where exactly are we with the axeII?

I meant all irs....Fractal or not. As Scott P. said "there is always some room for improvement".

All the amp simulations and IRs are like gourmet steaks somewhat......everyone prefers their steak a certain way. To the point where our idiosyncrasies creep in when we feel something is off or not right.

Not all irs are the same (OH, RW...etc)

However, i'm actually agreeing with you on your initial point regarding FRFR.

Where are we with the AxeII? How good is good? How great is great? How big is big?

It's relative....I used to think FW7.00 rocked! Now I think FW.11.00 is a lot better! FAS always finds ways to make better, even better!

 

[yek]

There are some misunderstandings regarding FRFR and high pass/low block and low pass/high block.

Maybe I can explain some of these issues for some of you.

The electric guitar itself produce frequencies in the range of roughly 82- 1396Hz but with harmonics, the upper range extends easily to 20000Hz.

The IR-impulse response, is a representation of a given guitar cab and speaker/speakers in terms o amplitude and phase for all the frequencies that the speaker/cab combination can reproduce if you use a flat measurement mic.
The IR can be further shaped by the use of different, mics and placement and preamps and eq.

When making a preset in the Axe Fx and you would like to play through a FRFR system (PA or your personal FRFR monitor) you of course need an Amp block, and a Cab block with an IR to simulate your favourite guitar cab.

The Amp block shape your tone and boost and lower different frequencies, and also high pass and low pass your guitar tone making the range narrower(simplified explanation)

In the Cab block, depending on your choosen IR your tone is further shaped and high passed and low passed making the tone even narrower. But the highest frequencies can still be in the range of 8-10 kHz.

If your preset in the Axe contains an Amp and Cab block you have shaped it to contain frequencies in the range of 60-10000 Hz. The 60 Hz and its harmonics (120,180,240...Hz) is due to the hum introduced by your outlet.

If you put this shaped tone through a PA system or a FRFR monitor and those are flat(don't shape the input, non of them are truly flat but some are almost flat, the rest often boost the lows and highs). Then you get what you put in, which is your guitar tone.

Since many FRFR monitors have boosted highs and lows your guitar tone doesn't sound as it was intended to.
But important, the FRFR monitor or PA does NOT add any frequencies that were not there to begin with even though they are capable if reproducing very low and high frequencies 20-20000 Hz (Full Range).

The reason that people often low block/high pass and high block low pass their tones is because the would like their tones to fit better in the mix and not to interfere with the rest of the instruments.

But yes, if you have a FRFR monitor or PA that colours your tone too much then you maybe need to decrease the amplitudes for the lower and higher frequencies to remove excessive lows and highs.

Sorry for the long post!

Excellent explanation!

 

[Abboehm]

This was my setup:


The q12 is in the right, it's kind of dark. Yeah this is my first FRFR/modeling rig, the wedge in the middle was house sound's. Using a suhr s4 strat style guitar

Hi. What is that stand holding your Axe + Furman? Seems pretty cool. Are you happy with it?

 

[Glennski]

There are some misunderstandings regarding FRFR and high pass/low block and low pass/high block.

Maybe I can explain some of these issues for some of you.

The electric guitar itself produce frequencies in the range of roughly 82- 1396Hz but with harmonics, the upper range extends easily to 20000Hz.

The IR-impulse response, is a representation of a given guitar cab and speaker/speakers in terms o amplitude and phase for all the frequencies that the speaker/cab combination can reproduce if you use a flat measurement mic.
The IR can be further shaped by the use of different, mics and placement and preamps and eq.

When making a preset in the Axe Fx and you would like to play through a FRFR system (PA or your personal FRFR monitor) you of course need an Amp block, and a Cab block with an IR to simulate your favourite guitar cab.

The Amp block shape your tone and boost and lower different frequencies, and also high pass and low pass your guitar tone making the range narrower(simplified explanation)

In the Cab block, depending on your choosen IR your tone is further shaped and high passed and low passed making the tone even narrower. But the highest frequencies can still be in the range of 8-10 kHz.

If your preset in the Axe contains an Amp and Cab block you have shaped it to contain frequencies in the range of 60-10000 Hz. The 60 Hz and its harmonics (120,180,240...Hz) is due to the hum introduced by your outlet.

If you put this shaped tone through a PA system or a FRFR monitor and those are flat(don't shape the input, non of them are truly flat but some are almost flat, the rest often boost the lows and highs). Then you get what you put in, which is your guitar tone.

Since many FRFR monitors have boosted highs and lows your guitar tone doesn't sound as it was intended to.
But important, the FRFR monitor or PA does NOT add any frequencies that were not there to begin with even though they are capable if reproducing very low and high frequencies 20-20000 Hz (Full Range).

The reason that people often low block/high pass and high block low pass their tones is because the would like their tones to fit better in the mix and not to interfere with the rest of the instruments.

But yes, if you have a FRFR monitor or PA that colours your tone too much then you maybe need to decrease the amplitudes for the lower and higher frequencies to remove excessive lows and highs.

Sorry for the long post!

Exactly.

I think a lot of people are equating FRFR to mean that there's a bunch of extra high and low frequencies that are being added that wouldn't normally be there in a regular amp/cab setup.

The Axefx is producing theoretically the same signal that a real life amp and cab that's miced up would, -however- this is then transmitted to the front of house guy, who would usually low pass and high pass the signal to make it fit in the mix.

What you hear at gigs using a non-axefx setup isn't just a raw mic signal, it's processed! If the FOH guy just left the EQ on the desk flat your tone would probably be shrill and undefined too!

There's also the possibility for the FOH guy (whether due to miscommunication or whatever) to not treat your direct signal as if it were a miced guitar signal and assume all processing is done to taste on your end. I guess that's up to you to figure out with them.

 

[simeon]

haven't read through the whole thread, so i apologise if this has already been mentioned

1) are power amp sims on?
2) was your FOH signal being output through the house monitor? house monitors always sound terrible in my experience...way too toppy and harsh. this may account for the big difference in sound between home and gig. i run one pair of outs to my own rcf's and i have the global eq set flat. the other pair of outputs go to foh and in the global eq for those outs, i have the top and bottom rolled off

 

[Kruegmeister]

Not exactly sure what 'digital' sounds like,

High Frequency. Analog FX, 2" Tape, etc. usually squash the High End.
A digital delay will be clearer (or less warm) than an analog delay.
So, I would say when someone says it sounds digital it has too much high frequency.
This loss of High Fidelity is usually thought of as warmth.
It can be dialed out, but I thought my Axe2 had too much high out of the gate.
I started by rolling of the high on the Global EQ and used a HF cutoff around 14-15khz on a lot of Cab blocks.
One thing for certain, tweak at high volume and ideally with the band at a practice 1st.

 

[toolfanem]

High Frequency. Analog FX, 2" Tape, etc. usually squash the High End.
A digital delay will be clearer (or less warm) than an analog delay.
So, I would say when someone says it sounds digital it has too much high frequency.
This loss of High Fidelity is usually thought of as warmth.
It can be dialed out, but I thought my Axe2 had too much high out of the gate.
I started by rolling of the high on the Global EQ and used a HF cutoff around 14-15khz on a lot of Cab blocks.
One thing for certain, tweak at high volume and ideally with the band at a practice 1st.

I was really just trying to be 'cute' with that comment I figured thats what he meant, but he also said that it was to bassy, so it seemed contradictory. Its just funny to me that people dont just say its got to much going on in the highs, rather than calling it digital.

 

[webe123]

Decided to bust out my new axe fx II rig in a full band setting last night. Rig consists of guitar into axe, out 1 to foh, out 2 to my personal matrix Q12a. Using a TRS cable from out 2 into the q12a

I prepared a few presets of a few different amp sims. They didn't sound amazing, but sounded decent enough when I cranked my q12a up in my basement. But apparently my ears were off, because I've never sounded that bad.

One was a buttery amp sim, and it sounded unbelievably shrill. My leads sounded full enough at home. but boosting the buttery amp sim with a ts808 and a null filter sounded awful. So thin! Had a hard time doing my job because my tone was so bad.

I also had a Pete thorn sl68 preset that sounded terrible too! Harsh, no clarity, just sounded bad.

Because everything was so harsh, I rolled off some Highs in the global EQ, but the axe still sounded thin and digital. Checking my ins and outs, I'm tickling the red, and may output is similar to my input level.

I know these things take time to learn, but I was hoping it'd be a lot more plug and play. Load an ac30, boost with a TS and it's feel like an amp, but that's NOT the case. Anyone have any advice? Just bummed because I spent so much money, more money than any gear I've ever bought, and it soundeds way worse than anything I've used

You know people like you amaze me! I cannot believe that pretty much most people including amp owners agree that an axe fx sound is killer....then people like you come along and act like it is the unit and not something YOU are doing. It seems to be user error.

I get great results from my axe and do NOT know what you are doing, but I can guarantee you that it is YOUR FAULT...not the units!

If it was the units fault then you would not be in the minority. 'nuff said.

As has been stated you CAN dial those things OUT, but have you even tried?

And setting up an axe is important, if you want plug and play use a line 6!

 

[FractalAudio]

Exactly.

I think a lot of people are equating FRFR to mean that there's a bunch of extra high and low frequencies that are being added that wouldn't normally be there in a regular amp/cab setup.

The Axefx is producing theoretically the same signal that a real life amp and cab that's miced up would, -however- this is then transmitted to the front of house guy, who would usually low pass and high pass the signal to make it fit in the mix.

What you hear at gigs using a non-axefx setup isn't just a raw mic signal, it's processed! If the FOH guy just left the EQ on the desk flat your tone would probably be shrill and undefined too!

There's also the possibility for the FOH guy (whether due to miscommunication or whatever) to not treat your direct signal as if it were a miced guitar signal and assume all processing is done to taste on your end. I guess that's up to you to figure out with them.

Exactly. Concise and clear.

There are two approaches:
1. Treat the signal out of the Axe-Fx as a mic'd amp signal and rely on the FOH guy to EQ it as he would a mic'd amp.
2. EQ the signal a priori and tell the FOH guy to leave the strip EQ flat.

 

[craiguitar]

I use approach 2 there, however as my band use our own PA and mix our own sound, there is nobody to argue with! Still, I find it easier to EQ within the Axe, and leave the desk EQ flat. Thus to a degree, developing a good sound is not relying on any other equipment.

 

[Bodde]

Other peoples presets never work for me. Different guitar, different tastes, different rooms, monitors and someone playing good, or having a good studio/stage tone doenst mean they know how to dial in axe...

Same here. I am never blown away by presets from other people because of the reasons above. I only use them as inspiration for routing and effect setup etc.
I guess many people want the Axe fx to be plug and play but it is not. Takes a lot of time and patience and reading on this forum to get it sound like you want. I guess that's why many people are disappointed and that's why there are numerous topics like this. The Axe is for tweakers!
I also feel too that I sometimes can get a better 'gig' tone out of a real amp and with much quicker results. BUT then you don't have all the routing possibilities and effects without bringing tons of gears. Not to mention that the Axe fx is really great for recording. Hang in there man!

 

[Kriig]

Half the fun is to create the sounds imho

 

[Uignal]

I had the exact opposite experience last night (for the most part).

Last night was my first gig with my Axe FX 2. I ran out 1 to the board in mono and out 2 in mono to my Mackie HD1221 used as a backline for self monitoring mostly. We run a very decent sound system and made it a point to set up early to get levels and my mix good. Once everything was plugged in I rolled down my output 2 so we could focus just on the PA's reproduction of my sound. Honestly...it was pretty spot on to start with. Didn't have a tremendous amount of bass response....but then again...that's not the point of my guitar playing. We barely EQ'd it at the board at all. I then moved back on stage and turned up my out 2 for my own monitoring and a little stage volume. My Mackie on stage was a little muddy so I tweaked it a little bit. I attribute this to the stage setup, etc..

As far as patches go...my main preset (I use all 8 scenes) was created from scratch. I "tuned" it to my rig at practice using gig level volumes for the most part. As mentioned above I didn't tweak too much for the final product at the show. I did use one additional preset that I got online. This I did have to tweak some due to it being very harsh on the high end.

Overall I would suggest to give it some time and get to know the box better. Crank the volume and don't neglect the cab block. It makes a huge difference in your end sound.

Good luck.

 

[bgrizzmayne]

They were way to thin and bright through my set up too - I'm not questioning the presets or IRs, it's just that through my set up, with my guitar / hands / ears, it just wasn't what I wanted

However, a few hours of tweaking those presets and comparing with other tones I like through the same rig (our full PA), all was golden :encouragement:

There can be so many variables. That's why I am so happy to own our PA, desk, in-ears etc with no backline whatsoever - it's such a consistent rig and it takes those variables right out of the equation


It's also why I don't really get into the preset sharing thing - there are so many things which will be different from one guys rig to another (that's before the question of personal taste comes into it) that it's just a crapshoot really. Yes, as I did with the Pete Thorn stuff, they can give a starting point, but I've honestly not downloaded one single patch which has ever hit the mark for me with no major adjustment required

This is a basic question, but when you tweak a Pete Thorn preset or the presets aren't hitting the marks- what about it exactly isn't working? I'm a little unsure where to even start. Whether it's the amp model itself, the cab pairing/IR, an EQ thing in the amp block, or I need to adjust with a PEQ or GEQ. There's a lot of variables vs. just having a regular guitar rig and turning up the treble and lowering some gain on my OD808 or something. Sounds like the IR might be the first place, then high/low passing with an EQ

 

[bgrizzmayne]

You know people like you amaze me! I cannot believe that pretty much most people including amp owners agree that an axe fx sound is killer....then people like you come along and act like it is the unit and not something YOU are doing. It seems to be user error.

I get great results from my axe and do NOT know what you are doing, but I can guarantee you that it is YOUR FAULT...not the units!

If it was the units fault then you would not be in the minority. 'nuff said.

As has been stated you CAN dial those things OUT, but have you even tried?

And setting up an axe is important, if you want plug and play use a line 6!

I never stated it wasn't my fault. IMO it's perfectly reasonable to question my fit with a unit if I'm not getting good results. At the same time, I'm also working towards achieving a better result. But with such an expensive unit, yeah I'm going to question it. Have you ever flipped a piece of gear? According to your porous logic, you'd need to keep everything you ever had and keep tweaking it. If you sell something off, you're being a weenie because you couldn't get it to sound good. "It's something YOU are doing."

If I didn't acknowledge it was a user problem, why would I start a thread asking for help from the community?

 

[UnsungHeroGuitars]

This is a basic question, but when you tweak a Pete Thorn preset or the presets aren't hitting the marks- what about it exactly isn't working? I'm a little unsure where to even start. Whether it's the amp model itself, the cab pairing/IR, an EQ thing in the amp block, or I need to adjust with a PEQ or GEQ. There's a lot of variables vs. just having a regular guitar rig and turning up the treble and lowering some gain on my OD808 or something.

Much like you, it was sounding too bright, thin and shrill through my set up for my personal taste / requirement

Therefore, I had to either find more body, or lessen the bright nature of the tone. As it transpires, it would naturally be a blend of both

I actually latched onto the Pete Thorn preset around the very same time that another guy here (and I apologise for not remembering who :|) posted a recording of a Les Paul through a tube amp & cab and offered up a challenge for Axe users to recreate the 'attack thunk' of a struck note - he made some reference to 'the dynamic difference' as I recall.

I loved both Pete's sound and the tone that this guy was getting - but they are, of course, vastly different. I had a go at recreating that 'low end stroke thunk' from Pete's presets and although I never quite achieved it, I loved where the tone had ended up and am using it in varying degrees of gain & effects now across my re-worked patches (narrowed down to less than 15 from +45!)

I would have looked at all manner of things to affect the tone - amp tone & EQ, Cab hi & lo cut levels and mic selection & various cab parameters. I even used a Multiband compressor to tame the lows when digging on a palm mute etc, but retain low end when such excesses aren't being exerted :encouragement:

 

[rmbaylin]

here's my 2-cents...

As a longtime user of the Axe, my experience has run the gamut of experiences at gigs. Sometimes its been wonderful, and other times shrill and tinny. I've always had people comment on the sound of the Axe, but I've put FRFR on the back burner for now, and now run with through a Matrix GT1000 into a Matrix NL12 (top) and a Port City 2x12 (lower). The sound has never been better. I find with the NL12 I can keep the cabs sims ON (but I don't usually). The NL12 is bright and clear with a wide dispersion, and the PC 2x12 gives me the warmth and oomph of the air movement. I've occasionally run through the PA now, but basically I am not doing that these days. I never thought I was an "amp in the room" guy, and was all about FRFR for years, but the time to dial in patches and frustration lead me to go the route of guitar cabs. So far this is my preferred approach.

Last night's gig I used 1 patch the whole night. I did some basic tweaking of the SuperTweed preset. I adjusted the effects, add a Mutlidelay, and tweaked the Amp EQ a bit. I also opened up the noise gate threshold. It was great. We play variety - SteelyD, Chicago, Country, Disco, Modern, Pop, R&B and it was so nice to have that one patch cover it all. I'm still a tweaker at heart , but was happy to just be a "player" last night.

If you invest some time I am pretty sure you'll find your tone in the Axe setup. Just like a real amp rig - I feel you need to consider the whole signal chain just as analog rig would be. The Axe itself is just on part - the IRs, the Patch, the Amp, the Speakers (PA, Cab, FRFR, etc) all make a difference.

 

[MikeyB59]

I suggest something like what LVC said. Don't start with Pete Thorn's patch. Start with an amp you like and a cab you like. Get the gain structure right. Tweak the EQ a bit. If you're not happy try some different cabs. Starting simple, just like a tube rig is the quickest way in my experience. When you get patches with a bunch of PEQ and filters and whatever, you're typically looking a patches by people who have very seasoned and specific reasons for all of it in THEIR rigs. All that stuff isn't necessary for a good basic sound and can totally confuse the issue when you're trying to figure out why it doesn't sound good.

As people have noted, there isn't a bunch of excess bass or highs to tame, though doing some roll off of both can be a simple way to avoid issues that might creep up.

If you can get a good sound from a tube rig, try running the Axe the same way to start.