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Fighting my CLR

FractalAudio

Administrator
Fractal Audio Systems
Moderator
FRFR is just not the same. Traditional head/cab you hear the sound from a bandwidth-restricted speaker at, say, 10 ft. In a typical modeler setup you are hearing what the "mic heard" when the IR was made and that mic was pushed up against the grill cloth.

One approach is to use "far field" IRs which are obtained using a measurement mic at a typical listening distance and angle. These are rare. There are a couple stock far-field IRs. They are indicated by (JM) for Jay Mitchell, who created them.

Even then it's still not the same because when you are using a traditional setup you move around while playing and the tone changes based on the angle. With a far-field IR the tone doesn't change with angle.

When I was gigging I used a power amp and cab behind me and sent the XLR outputs to FOH. More gear to lug but best of both worlds: traditional backline sound, consistent FOH sound.
 

skyhighrocks

Inspired
FRFR is just not the same. Traditional head/cab you hear the sound from a bandwidth-restricted speaker at, say, 10 ft. In a typical modeler setup you are hearing what the "mic heard" when the IR was made and that mic was pushed up against the grill cloth.

One approach is to use "far field" IRs which are obtained using a measurement mic at a typical listening distance and angle. These are rare. There are a couple stock far-field IRs. They are indicated by (JM) for Jay Mitchell, who created them.

Even then it's still not the same because when you are using a traditional setup you move around while playing and the tone changes based on the angle. With a far-field IR the tone doesn't change with angle.

When I was gigging I used a power amp and cab behind me and sent the XLR outputs to FOH. More gear to lug but best of both worlds: traditional backline sound, consistent FOH sound.
This is what I'm thinking as well. As much as I love the convenience of bringing less gear, I'm not playing as well because I'm not liking what I'm hearing. My other problem is finding/creating a preset that will get me what I need live without the switching gap being there and the CPU not being used up too quickly. My typical rig needs phaser, flanger, drive, wah, amp, filter, 2 delays, pitch block and reverb...I can't make that happen without using the lesser reverb and mono FX.
 

bishop5150

Fractal Fanatic
You either get used to the FRFR sound onstage or you don't. It really is that simple. I thought I would have a hard time but I didn't and I was shocked by that. For me, at this point in the game, I just need to be able to hear myself onstage. Between my personal wedges I use as back line and the front stage monitors I can hear myself fine and dig the sound. But everybody's different and you have to decide what's best for you and what makes you happy. Maybe find ya a nice sounding 2x12 cab instead of the 4x12 to lighten your load in and load out?
 

skyhighrocks

Inspired
You either get used to the FRFR sound onstage or you don't. It really is that simple. I thought I would have a hard time but I didn't and I was shocked by that. For me, at this point in the game, I just need to be able to hear myself onstage. Between my personal wedges I use as back line and the front stage monitors I can hear myself fine and dig the sound. But everybody's different and you have to decide what's best for you and what makes you happy. Maybe find ya a nice sounding 2x12 cab instead of the 4x12 to lighten your load in and load out?
I do have a 212 here...has 75 and a v30 in it. I don't mind hauling a 412...but yeah, for the smaller shows, the 212 will work. I'm still experimenting! Now I need to find a tone/preset that will do everything I need. I can create a tone that sounds good but it's just a one trick pony. I need more flexibility without having to change presets every song.
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
You either get used to the FRFR sound onstage or you don't. It really is that simple. I thought I would have a hard time but I didn't and I was shocked by that. For me, at this point in the game, I just need to be able to hear myself onstage. Between my personal wedges I use as back line and the front stage monitors I can hear myself fine and dig the sound. But everybody's different and you have to decide what's best for you and what makes you happy. Maybe find ya a nice sounding 2x12 cab instead of the 4x12 to lighten your load in and load out?
I've played a few shows with a Fractal -> Crown Power Amp -> 2x12

Both a Marshall 2x12 (loaded with GT12t-75's I think?) and an open back Twin style cab with Weber Ceramics.

Sounds and feels incredible. It's just too much kit for me unless the show specifically calls for a backline for looks.
 

yek

Moderator
Moderator
When I was gigging I used a power amp and cab behind me and sent the XLR outputs to FOH. More gear to lug but best of both worlds: traditional backline sound, consistent FOH sound.
+1

That's what I do. Not that much more to carry: Port City 1x12 (or whatever is present at the venue) and Fryette Power Station 2. Couldn't be happier. Still prefer it over FR monitoring, though that works fine for me too (with copious low- and high-passing).
 
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bishop5150

Fractal Fanatic
I do have a 212 here...has 75 and a v30 in it. I don't mind hauling a 412...but yeah, for the smaller shows, the 212 will work. I'm still experimenting! Now I need to find a tone/preset that will do everything I need. I can create a tone that sounds good but it's just a one trick pony. I need more flexibility without having to change presets every song.
Also, have you tried experimenting with Global output 2 EQ to adjust the tone going to your CLR's? For me, I set them like backline and use Global Out 2 EQ to give them a pretty descent low end bump so I have a nice thump on stage coming from them.
 

skyhighrocks

Inspired
+1

That's what I do. Not that much more to carry: Port City 1x12 and Fryette Power Station 2. Couldn't be happier. Still prefer it over FR monitoring, but that works out fine too.

Looks like I'm going in the right direction. I even read through your entire PDF with settings advice/cab advice and tried most of it...but the CLR seems to be the issue for me.
 

skyhighrocks

Inspired
Also, have you tried experimenting with Global output 2 EQ to adjust the tone going to your CLR's? For me, I set them like backline and use Global Out 2 EQ to give them a pretty descent low end bump so I have a nice thump on stage coming from them.

It's hard to explain...it's not an EQ thing. It's just the tone the CLR gives out and the feel of it. It's not natural to me. Especially for more bluesy type stuff...it's too instant if that makes sense. I lose sustain and feel.
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
+1

That's what I do. Not that much more to carry: Port City 1x12 (or whatever is present at the venue) and Fryette Power Station 2. Couldn't be happier. Still prefer it over FR monitoring, though that works fine for me too (with copious low- and high-passing).
I just skimmed the Power Station II manual. That looks impressive.

http://www.fryette.com/content/Power_Station_Manual_Eng_Rev1.pdf

Do you find the 50W RMS power enough?
 

pat6969

Inspired
Looks like I'm going in the right direction. I even read through your entire PDF with settings advice/cab advice and tried most of it...but the CLR seems to be the issue for me.
Maybe it's the CLR? I know a lot of guys like them but I simply didn't. I found it hollow sounding and didn't like the top end when I turned it up. It's obviously a good monitor or guys wouldn't gush over them, for me it didn't work. Have you auditioned others in depth? I use my cab cuts at 75 and 6000 and that gets me close to "amp in room", not perfect, but close.
 

skyhighrocks

Inspired
Maybe it's the CLR? I know a lot of guys like them but I simply didn't. I found it hollow sounding and didn't like the top end when I turned it up. It's obviously a good monitor or guys wouldn't gush over them, for me it didn't work. Have you auditioned others in depth?
That's the conclusion I'm coming to. I've tried an Alto 212 and the Friedman as well...same thing. The FRFR sound is not pleasing to my ears.
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
That's the conclusion I'm coming to. I've tried an Alto 212 and the Friedman as well...same thing. The FRFR sound is not pleasing to my ears.
It's legit that some don't bond with FRFR for live use.

In cases where I'm hitting a wall like this, I use full program material to get my ears adjusted. I playback a track that I know how it should sound. And see if the rig is working right or what not.
 

cragginshred

Fractal Fanatic
Best quote ever in the context of going back and forth between real rigs and modeler rigs - 'for a while you will love your virtual rig, and hate the real, then you'll find a reason to go back' . Works in both directions due to drawbacks on both sides and of course our eternal quest for better tone!

When I had a real 5150 III 1/2 stack I loved the clarity of the chords and riffs, but the solo notes were always thin, shrill and ice picky. In my Ax8 rig, although the chords and riffs do not sound exactly the same as the real rig the solos blow it away with full blooming notes that are so much more pleasing to my ears.

Bottom line is in the FRFR world it's all about the right IR. I have numerous bundles myself and the only one I use is from a Freman creation purchased in his pre set pack. This IR and my Friedman asm sounds 10x better than my real Marshall cabs from the Ax8 running through them with more full 3d tone coming from the FRFR rig!
 
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skyhighrocks

Inspired
It's legit that some don't bond with FRFR for live use.

In cases where I'm hitting a wall like this, I use full program material to get my ears adjusted. I playback a track that I know how it should sound. And see if the rig is working right or what not.

That's the thing...I've played my solo CD through it and it definitely sounds different than how I mixed it. The dispersion is probably where my ears are not used to hearing things so spread out like that.
 

barhrecords

Axe-Master
That's the thing...I've played my solo CD through it and it definitely sounds different than how I mixed it. The dispersion is probably where my ears are not used to hearing things so spread out like that.
Mine sound very neutral and flattering up on sticks in free field mode in my studio. In an A/B with my studio monitors, no surprises for my system.
 

AminorZmajor

Experienced
If needed, I could gig with just going FOH and CLR monitor but as mentioned already a few times using both direct to FOH and out 2 to power amp cab is what I prefer. I am ready to use 412, 212 or 112 cabs as needed..... LOL.......
 

skyhighrocks

Inspired
If needed, I could gig with just going FOH and CLR monitor but as mentioned already a few times using both direct to FOH and out 2 to power amp cab is what I prefer. I am ready to use 412, 212 or 112 cabs as needed..... LOL.......
Yup, I could gig with the CLR again but I wouldn't enjoy it at this point.
 
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