Fender Deluxe - Am I crazy?

[Zen Guitar]

I believe that Cliff has said previously that he's not interested in going after Mesa's 5-band EQ. IIRC, there wasn't much respect for that aspect of the circuit.

Since I'm already up on my soap box... My other, non-related request, which I continue to carry a banner for, is to replicate the 5 band graphic EQ on the Mesa Mark series amps as this is as key to their sound as the tonestack is and using a parametric or graphic EQ after the amp block has left me similarly frustrated. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
-Matt

I remember something to this affect as well, however I still have a candle burning in hope for it.

In defense of my request (and the many others that also feel strongly about this), I would offer that those that really know Mark series Boogies understand that the affect of the 5 band graphic is something that cannot be duplicated with post amp EQ. It has an affect on the amp in various ways, some even unforeseen by Boogie at time of design. Respect or not for the circuit, its undeniable that it has a sonic influence that is not equivalent to post amp EQ. In fact, in designing the new Mark V, the folks at Mesa discovered that the difference in value of the coupling capacitor between EQ and non-EQ Mark IIC+'s had a very noticeable impact on the tone... Enough where certain players, even their own Doug West, had a very strong preference for one over the other. Also, keeping in mind where the circuitry is placed within the amp (and not having the ability in the Axe to put an EQ block between pre and power amp sections), and understanding the idiosyncrasies of the circuit (non-constant Q with gain/boost, non-linearity of the cut/boost), the way it affects the ammount and contour of the signal hitting the power amp, etc, etc, it would seem that it would be accepted by all that it affects the amp's sound in ways other than basic EQing. Additionally, using the classic V curve on the graphic EQ of these amps is extremely common practice for both classic and modern tones, to the point where I would submit that many of the trademark sounds associated with these amps require it.

We have so many powerful features and ability to make subtle tweaks with the Axe-Fx already (from cap values to bias to transformer customization), it seems odd to omit something as basic and integral as this feature of such a very popular group of amps.

So, all that said... I'll keep my candle lit and hope that Cliff decides to revisit this.

Cheers,
-Matt

 

[biggness]

I believe that Cliff has said previously that he's not interested in going after Mesa's 5-band EQ. IIRC, there wasn't much respect for that aspect of the circuit.

[quote="Zen Guitar":2udylv6g]
Since I'm already up on my soap box... My other, non-related request, which I continue to carry a banner for, is to replicate the 5 band graphic EQ on the Mesa Mark series amps as this is as key to their sound as the tonestack is and using a parametric or graphic EQ after the amp block has left me similarly frustrated. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
-Matt

I remember something to this affect as well, however I still have a candle burning in hope for it.

In defense of my request (and the many others that also feel strongly about this), I would offer that those that really know Mark series Boogies understand that the affect of the 5 band graphic is something that cannot be duplicated with post amp EQ. It has an affect on the amp in various ways, some even unforeseen by Boogie at time of design. Respect or not for the circuit, its undeniable that it has a sonic influence that is not equivalent to post amp EQ. In fact, in designing the new Mark V, the folks at Mesa discovered that the difference in value of the coupling capacitor between EQ and non-EQ Mark IIC+'s had a very noticeable impact on the tone... Enough where certain players, even their own Doug West, had a very strong preference for one over the other. Also, keeping in mind where the circuitry is placed within the amp (and not having the ability in the Axe to put an EQ block between pre and power amp sections), and understanding the idiosyncrasies of the circuit (non-constant Q with gain/boost, non-linearity of the cut/boost), the way it affects the ammount and contour of the signal hitting the power amp, etc, etc, it would seem that it would be accepted by all that it affects the amp's sound in ways other than basic EQing. Additionally, using the classic V curve on the graphic EQ of these amps is extremely common practice for both classic and modern tones, to the point where I would submit that many of the trademark sounds associated with these amps require it.

We have so many powerful features and ability to make subtle tweaks with the Axe-Fx already (from cap values to bias to transformer customization), it seems odd to omit something as basic and integral as this feature of such a very popular group of amps.

So, all that said... I'll keep my candle lit and hope that Cliff decides to revisit this.

Cheers,
-Matt[/quote:2udylv6g]

+1

If Cliff were to implement this, I would be ecstatic.

 

[chase]

And to prove it, here's a clip:

http://www.fractalaudio.com/temp/fender.mp3

The same riff is played twice. One of them is the Axe-Fx, the other is Amplitube Fender. All controls at noon on both.

Can you tell which is which?

Aside from really nasty aliasing in Amplitube Fender and very artificial sounding distortion (which you don't hear in clean tones like this) the tones sound nearly identical to me.

I don't know which of these is more accurate (I'm guessing the second one is Amplitube), but the two takes don't actually sound that similar to me. The first is distinctly brighter/thinner, the second is warmer/darker. Could probably dial one to sound like the other, but they're not hard to distinguish.

Well, I've been kinda messing with you guys...

I've actually been spending quite a bit of time on the Fender models lately along with the spring reverb.

Here's a sample of what the new "Deluxe Verb" model with the new reverb sounds like: http://www.fractalaudio.com/temp/fender.mp3

This, however, sounds awesome. I have no complaints about the existing Fender models, but I'm glad to hear they're getting another look, and certainly won't mind any improvements or additional models.

The bright cap has been changed to 60 pF on the new model as this is what my reference amp measured. This amp model will let you vary the value from 50 to 500 pF.

Any benefit to making the brightness cap parameter work this way on all models?

 

[shredi knight]

+1

If Cliff were to implement this, I would be ecstatic.

+2

I'm also holding out hope that Cliff will add a model of the Mesa eq to the appropriate amp sims.

 

[dpeterson]

cliff said he couldnt because it would drop his pants on his modeling techniques.

it would be cool if each model that has a physical eq could have another page with a little eq in it where you could select each slider and move it.

 

[javajunkie]

cliff said he couldnt because it would drop his pants on his modeling techniques.

it would be cool if each model that has a physical eq could have another page with a little eq in it where you could select each slider and move it.

I don't recall him saying that? Where did you see that?

Last I saw him comment was:
"Use the Parametric or Graphic EQ. FWIW, the EQ in the Mark series sucks. It's a crude, clunky and limited design. The EQ in the Axe-Fx is far superior and much more flexible.

If you need to, you can copy the Mesa EQ using the Parametric EQ block."

He has also commented that putting a loop between the poweramp and preamp is not possible for technical reasons he cannot get into.

 

[Scott Peterson]

(sarcasm ON)

I like how the Mesa guys turn a Fender thread into a subject that's all about them. Talk about self-absorbed!

(sarcasm OFF)

Guys, you need to start your own thread.

(slinks off to avoid the coming firestorm from the Mesa lovers)

 

[mortega76]

How's anyone supposed to know who's not into taking amps apart that a Deluxe has a 6.8k resistor and that setting the Axe to 6.8 it replicates the mising mids control :? . It's a shame that things like this get randomly mentioned on the side in a thread of 20 pages where anyone barely pays attention after page 4.

Information like this belongs into the manual which could really need some updating as well.

Was the setting of 6.8 always the case ? Only with the new model ? How about other non Mid models ?

I can already hear the 'use your ears' comments, but obviously there are a few of us who are interested in default settings like these as a starting point.

You sure do complain a lot.

Oh...ok, that's the way it goes. For a second there I forgot the golden Fractal rules...

Hey Vega, we have to remember that Cliff does have a sense of humor too... I took it as kind of a "buddy buddy" comeback... for me it was no harm intended. You know we all have much for the Vegaman! Don't take it too seriously.

 

[mortega76]

(sarcasm ON)

I like how the Mesa guys turn a Fender thread into a subject that's all about them. Talk about self-absorbed!

(sarcasm OFF)

Guys, you need to start your own thread.

(slinks off to avoid the coming firestorm from the Mesa lovers)

Speaking of Mesa's... check this out! Freaking cool!!! What makes it even more ingenious is that it's called a Time Table!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: Reminds me of the time when I had my Vetta II HD and our drummer at the time made a comment that I had the Starship Enterprise as an amp and that it had everything there... He shortly asked me "Hey Mo, what time is it?" I told him... "Check my amp..." and he was looking for the time for about 2 mintues!

 

[shredi knight]

(sarcasm ON)

I like how the Mesa guys turn a Fender thread into a subject that's all about them. Talk about self-absorbed!

(sarcasm OFF)

Guys, you need to start your own thread.

(slinks off to avoid the coming firestorm from the Mesa lovers)

Started a thread about it long ago:

viewtopic.php?f=29&t=4091




Mesas were originally modified Fenders though, so when you think about it, it's only fitting that this thread should morph into a Mesa discussion. :mrgreen:


P.S. You sure do complain a lot.

 

[Smilzo]

Mesas were originally modified Fenders though

I wonder when someone spot out with this argument...
They are not the same. Fender bell like, mesa "boogie".

C'mon Cliff, upgrade us! :lol:

 

[Armin]

And to prove it, here's a clip:

http://www.fractalaudio.com/temp/fender.mp3

The same riff is played twice. One of them is the Axe-Fx, the other is Amplitube Fender. All controls at noon on both.

Can you tell which is which?

Aside from really nasty aliasing in Amplitube Fender and very artificial sounding distortion (which you don't hear in clean tones like this) the tones sound nearly identical to me.

I don't know which of these is more accurate (I'm guessing the second one is Amplitube), but the two takes don't actually sound that similar to me. The first is distinctly brighter/thinner, the second is warmer/darker. Could probably dial one to sound like the other, but they're not hard to distinguish.

Well, I've been kinda messing with you guys...

I've actually been spending quite a bit of time on the Fender models lately along with the spring reverb.

Here's a sample of what the new "Deluxe Verb" model with the new reverb sounds like: http://www.fractalaudio.com/temp/fender.mp3

This, however, sounds awesome. I have no complaints about the existing Fender models, but I'm glad to hear they're getting another look, and certainly won't mind any improvements or additional models.

The bright cap has been changed to 60 pF on the new model as this is what my reference amp measured. This amp model will let you vary the value from 50 to 500 pF.

Any benefit to making the brightness cap parameter work this way on all models?

Are the two links not the same mp3 ?
You like only the seconds one :roll:

And yes, it sounds great !

 

[javajunkie]

And to prove it, here's a clip:

http://www.fractalaudio.com/temp/fender.mp3

The same riff is played twice. One of them is the Axe-Fx, the other is Amplitube Fender. All controls at noon on both.

Can you tell which is which?

Aside from really nasty aliasing in Amplitube Fender and very artificial sounding distortion (which you don't hear in clean tones like this) the tones sound nearly identical to me.

I don't know which of these is more accurate (I'm guessing the second one is Amplitube), but the two takes don't actually sound that similar to me. The first is distinctly brighter/thinner, the second is warmer/darker. Could probably dial one to sound like the other, but they're not hard to distinguish.

Well, I've been kinda messing with you guys...

I've actually been spending quite a bit of time on the Fender models lately along with the spring reverb.

Here's a sample of what the new "Deluxe Verb" model with the new reverb sounds like: http://www.fractalaudio.com/temp/fender.mp3

This, however, sounds awesome. I have no complaints about the existing Fender models, but I'm glad to hear they're getting another look, and certainly won't mind any improvements or additional models.

The bright cap has been changed to 60 pF on the new model as this is what my reference amp measured. This amp model will let you vary the value from 50 to 500 pF.

Any benefit to making the brightness cap parameter work this way on all models?

Are the two links not the same mp3 ?
You like only the seconds one :roll:

And yes, it sounds great !

Same file name, not the same file. Cliff overwrote the earlier one. The first mp3 he put up had an Amplitube sample and an axe-fx sample. The one that is there now only is the reworked fender deluxe reverb on the Axe-fx.

 

[Armin]

ok, I see.

Seams that the next firmware would give us great Fender sounds - 'hope for a Fender Tweed Deluxe too - the real one sounds this great clean and cranked.

 

[chase]

Same file name, not the same file. Cliff overwrote the earlier one. The first mp3 he put up had an Amplitube sample and an axe-fx sample. The one that is there now only is the reworked fender deluxe reverb on the Axe-fx.

Heh. I listened to them a day or so apart so I didn't even catch that.

 

[marvinx]

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default ... ID=8750083

listen to that and tell me the fender models weren't improved!
Yeah!!!!

Its amazing to me, how many people said, "no the fender models are perfect", and in the release notes of the new firmware increased power amp accuracy is listed there.

Im just glad Cliff decided perfect, wasn't perfect enough. Its that sort of unceasing desire for improvement that gets your product to the top.
~mx~

 

[jhuggins]

that sounds nothing short of fantastic

 

[AndrewSimon]

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=59443&content=songinfo&songID=8750083

listen to that and tell me the fender models weren't improved!

~mx~

Awesome clip

:shock:

 

[Dutch]

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=59443&content=songinfo&songID=8750083

listen to that and tell me the fender models weren't improved!
Yeah!!!!

Its amazing to me, how many people said, "no the fender models are perfect", and in the release notes of the new firmware increased power amp accuracy is listed there.

There weren't that much people that said they were perfect, were there? There were those that were happy and had tweaked them to their liking. Noone has even said it was easy to tweak them, just that they'd found what they were looking for, OR that it was a bit hard to assert what was THE FENDER TONE in the first place as so many differ so much in tone. As for Jay, I think he was basing his assertions mostly on the bassman model, while most complainers were going for the deluxe tone. At least that was my impression. Jay has very good monitors...

Im just glad Cliff decided perfect, wasn't perfect enough. Its that sort of unceasing desire for improvement that gets your product to the top.
~mx~

On that we agree wholeheartedly! I liked the brownface, but wasn't exactly smitten. IMO the Fenders weren't easy to tweak, either.

BTW, Soundclick wouldn't play. I'll try tmorrow.

Edit: it played. POP all over!! I didn't think it did that previously.

 

[Jay Mitchell]

Its amazing to me, how many people said, "no the fender models are perfect",

It's amazing to me, OTOH, how someone like yourself can make such an assertion, given that is is false.

Try to show us just one instance of anyone saying "the fender models are perfect." You will fail, because it has not happened here.

I have one (hopefully) simple request: please tell the truth....