1. We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.
    Dismiss Notice

FC-6 great, but gap when channel switching drive block

Discussion in 'FC-12 and FC-6 Controllers' started by fractalz, Feb 8, 2019.

  1. fractalz

    fractalz
    Expand Collapse
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    354
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Just received my FC-6 today. This thing is a tank!

    It is working great but I was surprised to hear an audio gap when switching a scene that switched a drive block channel. The drive model was the same with only a slight change to the drive knob (it was actually a mistake, the blocks were basically identical).

    Are drive blocks not gapless when switching channels?
     
  2. chris

    chris
    Expand Collapse
    Legend!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    23,976
    Likes Received:
    15,157
    You’re certain nothing else was changing? Upload the preset if you really want help with this.
     
  3. Bakerman

    Bakerman
    Expand Collapse
    Axe-Master

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    6,196
    Likes Received:
    1,709
    Yes, the drive block mutes briefly when switching channels. It doesn't matter if the type or any parameters actually change.
     
  4. Moke

    Moke
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    Aug 3, 2011
    Messages:
    4,428
    Likes Received:
    5,145
    Location:
    Hesperia, CA
    Yep... even if the Drive block is muted in both scenes... Strange?
     
  5. #5 slinky005, Feb 8, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2019
    slinky005

    slinky005
    Expand Collapse
    Forum Addict

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,030
    Likes Received:
    385
    Location:
    Montreal, Quebec
    I tested this as I was curious.
    What constitutes a gap - a fraction of a second of silence?
    When I set it to change channels (not scenes) for the drive, I'm not getting a gap if it's bypassed on both channels.
    If I use two different settings I hear a "switching" but there's no actual gap.
     
  6. lqdsnddist

    lqdsnddist
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,710
    Likes Received:
    4,846
    I think anything that could result in an audible “pop” has a short gap to prevent that from happening. Probably could used the Router block, MUX or whatever it’s called and multiple drive blocks to get around this, instead of swapping channels.
     
  7. fractalz

    fractalz
    Expand Collapse
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    354
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Thanks for confirming guys. I thought the gaps were gone with the advent of channels but there are ways around this...
     
  8. fractalz

    fractalz
    Expand Collapse
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    354
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Yes, a brief silence, no matter how brief, is what I call a gap. This happened when I was "stepping on the gas" going to my lead patch and the brief silence took the wind out of my sails (gas out of my tires...?)... Anyway, lots of ways to work around it, but it was unexpected...
     
    is9582 likes this.
  9. fractalz

    fractalz
    Expand Collapse
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    354
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Test patch attached. Here is what gets recorded when I switch from scene 1 to 2 (only thing changing is the channel of the drive - same settings on each channel).

    OD-GAP.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  10. lqdsnddist

    lqdsnddist
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,710
    Likes Received:
    4,846
    Would you prefer an audible "pop" opposed to a nearly imperceptible (in a band context) gap though ?

    I've owned real amp heads that have gaps when changing channels too
     
    ccroyalsenders likes this.
  11. fractalz

    fractalz
    Expand Collapse
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    354
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    Of course not.

    As you know from being around here a while, many of us pay attention to organizing patches to create gapless scene changes. This case wasn't gapless and I thought it was worth noting (something I couldn't tell until my FC arrived).

    I'm grateful the worst-case is a nicely faded gap, but I'll still prefer two drive blocks to the gap. And my Mesa Mark V would rip my head off when I channel switched so I know how bad it can get ;)
     
  12. Bakerman

    Bakerman
    Expand Collapse
    Axe-Master

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    6,196
    Likes Received:
    1,709
    It would be nice if the block do the quick fades without this ~15ms complete silence between them. That should still prevent pops while being less noticeable.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. fractalz

    fractalz
    Expand Collapse
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2014
    Messages:
    708
    Likes Received:
    354
    Location:
    Portland, OR
    The silence is probably where the real action occurs. Fade out, do stuff, fade in. If it could switch without needing the silence, it wouldn't fade out/in either.
     
  14. lqdsnddist

    lqdsnddist
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    May 10, 2013
    Messages:
    4,710
    Likes Received:
    4,846
    I think I've mentioned this before in various threads, but, figure worth bringing up again. In studying psycho-acoustics in grad school I had to do a lot of experiments on both normal and impaired hearing subjects. Running gap detection tests, a lot of subjects can't perceive audible gaps less than about 10ms, and many hearing impaired listeners couldn't detect gaps smaller than about 40ms!. Reason for this is that hearing loss, noise damage et al., doesn't just reduce auditory thresholds for soft sounds, BUT, also results in reduced temporal and frequency resolution. In other words, you can't tell apart similar sounds, can't detect gaps in timing etc.

    Point of this is that 1) good reminders for musicians to protect their hearing, and more so 2) that some of these audio gaps that we can measure and detect in certain controlled environments are unlikely to be discernible by a lot of musicians and/or audience members.

    I'm not saying they aren't real, or that some people can't hear them, BUT, that a lot of people who simply can not hear them in a best case scenario, and who have zero chance of hearing them in more everyday context. To which, I think it is somewhat a case of much ado over nothing, and I personally don't have any concerns about gaps.

    I didn't have any issues with gaps on my II either, and if anything the III has reduced what I consider a non-issue even further
     
    <MACHINE> and Rex like this.
  15. Rex

    Rex
    Expand Collapse
    Legend!

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    19,205
    Likes Received:
    9,005
    Well put. The gaps are like hairline scratches. If you put a hairline scratch across a uniform coat of paint, it's relatively easy to see the scratch. But put it on the border between two coats of paint, with different colors on each side of the scratch, and you may not even see the scratch until someone tells you to look for it.
     
    ccroyalsenders and NeoSound like this.
  16. Bakerman

    Bakerman
    Expand Collapse
    Axe-Master

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    6,196
    Likes Received:
    1,709
    The first part might be true, but switching instantly without fades could still create pops. Parts of the spectrum could change level significantly from one drive setting to the next.
     
  17. Rex

    Rex
    Expand Collapse
    Legend!

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    19,205
    Likes Received:
    9,005
    This has been my suspicion all along.


    If the change affects the waveform at all, the fade-in/fade-out is necessary. Any discontinuous change in the waveform will be heard as a click or a pop.
     
  18. Kamil Kisiel

    Kamil Kisiel
    Expand Collapse
    Inspired

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2018
    Messages:
    256
    Likes Received:
    211
    Yeah, there was some discussion about this amongst synth developers the other day. It's pretty counterintuitive, but even if you start a pure sine wave at 0 phase from pure silence you will get a pop unless you use a fade-in.
     
  19. Adinfinitum

    Adinfinitum
    Expand Collapse
    Veteran

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    352
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    I was surprised how much I loved THE FC6 With it's incredible flexibility.

    I hate bringing up or asking for features or amp (except a Gk250 ML), but when switching presets I have a delay between switching presets and the prior preset trails. Hard to explain and I'm away so can't post anything.

    I'm not gigging and I havemy MFC hooked up so not something to whine about. Cliff and Co have about a 100 firmware updates to work on, and I am sure tweaks and new features will be implemented.

    At this point (20 years of digital modeling), all my hardware and plugins sound amazing. I even opened up Guitar Rig 5 and got great sounds, but . . . Axe3 blows me away. I haven't even loaded my bevy of IR because the included ones work for me. Let's just say it is inspirational.

    Also Leon's and Austin Buddy's patches are amazing. Love the ROCKMAN TM

    Wish I could send him my XP100!.
     
  20. FractalAudio

    FractalAudio
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Fractal Audio Systems Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    12,478
    Likes Received:
    79,163
    Not really counter-intuitive. Mathematically it's the product of the sine wave and the Heaviside step function. Doesn't matter that it's a sine wave at zero degrees. It's still a discontinuity. Discontinuities cause clicks.
     
    yeky83 and ccroyalsenders like this.

Share This Page