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Wish Explanation of the differences between the controls of the real amps and their modeled counterparts

axes

axes

Inspired
Reading through the Wiki it's clear that many of the amps were modeled with different (optimized) pot tapers on the controls. While it's nice to have ideallized versions of amps with controls that don't make that much sense in the originals it would also be nice to know on an amp-by-amp basis what controls have been changed compared to the originals and what the differences are (eg. how to set the modeled controls to match the real ones). For example, Cliff himself has shared that the modeled Mesa Mark Graphic EQ uses very different tapers to the original and since I believe I'm not the only one who likes to refer to artist settings sometimes, it would be nice to know how to dial those into the models accurately. Is this something we can expect or is it out of the question?
 
laxu

laxu

Power User
It would greatly help if Axe-Edit could offer a way to quickly reference not both manual and wiki notes for a particular amp models, controls of the block and so on.
 
axes

axes

Inspired
laxu said:
It would greatly help if Axe-Edit could offer a way to quickly reference not both manual and wiki notes for a particular amp models, controls of the block and so on.
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I wouldn't even dare to imagine that, I'd already be really happy to have this written down or something.
 
G

guitarnerdswe

Fractal Fanatic
axes said:
Reading through the Wiki it's clear that many of the amps were modeled with different (optimized) pot tapers on the controls. While it's nice to have ideallized versions of amps with controls that don't make that much sense in the originals it would also be nice to know on an amp-by-amp basis what controls have been changed compared to the originals and what the differences are (eg. how to set the modeled controls to match the real ones). For example, Cliff himself has shared that the modeled Mesa Mark Graphic EQ uses very different tapers to the original and since I believe I'm not the only one who likes to refer to artist settings sometimes, it would be nice to know how to dial those into the models accurately. Is this something we can expect or is it out of the question?
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Not true. Most of all amps and knobs work as the real amp. The wiki is run by users, and might not be accurate or up to date.
 
axes

axes

Inspired
guitarnerdswe said:
Not true. Most of all amps and knobs work as the real amp. The wiki is run by users, and might not be accurate or up to date.
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In the wiki's corressponding articles (such as the Amp block) many of the comments on this are quotes from Cliff's comments in this forum. Also, not too long ago I took part in a forum thread regarding the Boogie IIC+ model and Cliff himself mentioned how the Mark EQ model utilizes different tapers from the original. So yeah, true.
 
G

guitarnerdswe

Fractal Fanatic
axes said:
In the wiki's corressponding articles (such as the Amp block) many of the comments on this are quotes from Cliff's comments in this forum. Also, not too long ago I took part in a forum thread regarding the Boogie IIC+ model and Cliff himself mentioned how the Mark EQ model utilizes different tapers from the original. So yeah, true.
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The wiki doesn't always remove old quotes, even when they don't apply anymore. There's a lot of stuff on there that's inaccurate.

The mark EQ sliders are one of the few things that have different tapers.
 
Rex

Rex

Legend!
axes said:
In the wiki's corressponding articles (such as the Amp block) many of the comments on this are quotes from Cliff's comments in this forum. Also, not too long ago I took part in a forum thread regarding the Boogie IIC+ model and Cliff himself mentioned how the Mark EQ model utilizes different tapers from the original. So yeah, true.
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That wiki article mainly calls out some different tapers in Presence and Master Volume controls, and in boogie GEQ faders. Most of the Amp block controls are very true to the originals.

The wiki article also points out why trying to duplicate artists’ knob setups is an exercise in futility. Differences in pot behavior between one amp and a supposedly identical amp can be big. And we only know that those settings are what the artist used for one performance at one venue, with his guitar, into his cab that’s miked up in his way, and processed by his FOH engineer. You’re not likely to get the same results if you slavishly follow his settings.

It’s like driving a car around a corner. Mario might have turned his steering wheel 63 degrees to the right, but if you do exactly that, without looking and adjusting to what you’re seeing, you’re likely to hit something.

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amp_block
 
G

guitarnerdswe

Fractal Fanatic
sprint said:
Seems odd the mark EQ tapers are not replicated as those amp EQs must one of the most "copied from sight" amp controls of all time.
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Yeah, but from what I recall, the tapers are quite bad on the amps. That's also the reason for not doing a 1 to 1 on the amp models. Nothing happens in the middle, and then there's a huge jump when nearing the top or bottom on the amp sliders.


Rex said:
That wiki article mainly calls out some different tapers in Presence and Master Volume controls, and in boogie GEQ faders. Most of the Amp block controls are very true to the originals.

The wiki article also points out why trying to duplicate artists’ knob setups is an exercise in futility. Differences in pot behavior between one amp and a supposedly identical amp can be big. And we only know that those settings are what the artist used for one performance at one venue, with his guitar, into his cab that’s miked up in his way, and processed by his FOH engineer. You’re not likely to get the same results if you slavishly follow his settings.

It’s like driving a car around a corner. Mario might have turned his steering wheel 63 degrees to the right, but if you do exactly that, without looking and adjusting to what you’re seeing, you’re likely to hit something.

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amp_block
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The master volume tapers are for the most part accurate as well. Except in cases with the Blues Junior, which has a linear taper (which is just stupid anyway IMHO).

So presence is the only authentic parameter (as in it exists on the/an amp in question) that has a different taper than the real amp.
 
axes

axes

Inspired
Rex said:
That wiki article mainly calls out some different tapers in Presence and Master Volume controls, and in boogie GEQ faders. Most of the Amp block controls are very true to the originals.

The wiki article also points out why trying to duplicate artists’ knob setups is an exercise in futility. Differences in pot behavior between one amp and a supposedly identical amp can be big. And we only know that those settings are what the artist used for one performance at one venue, with his guitar, into his cab that’s miked up in his way, and processed by his FOH engineer. You’re not likely to get the same results if you slavishly follow his settings.

It’s like driving a car around a corner. Mario might have turned his steering wheel 63 degrees to the right, but if you do exactly that, without looking and adjusting to what you’re seeing, you’re likely to hit something.

https://wiki.fractalaudio.com/wiki/index.php?title=Amp_block
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I've read all of the information available on the wiki about this and while I understand and agree with your points to an extent, I still believe that it would be good to know what the exact changes are. Even if it doesn't help in nailing copied settings exactly it helps in at least getting into the ballpark.
 
axes

axes

Inspired
Just as an added thought, I guess the desire and need for this really depends on the user. I've had multiple different brands of amps before the Axe and am used to certain settings on certain brands and never really understood why I'm not getting simlilar results in some cases until reading up on it.
Because of this, I think this is something that should be talked about a lot more and maybe one of the first thoughts that a new user should be introduced to - while the models are as accurate as possible, some of the controls have been rationalized. This IS a good thing. But we're in the dark until it's explained what was changed and how to use the rationalized controls to get into the ballpark of the real ones.
 
Rex

Rex

Legend!
axes said:
Just as an added thought, I guess the desire and need for this really depends on the user. I've had multiple different brands of amps before the Axe and am used to certain settings on certain brands and never really understood why I'm not getting simlilar results in some cases until reading up on it.
Because of this, I think this is something that should be talked about a lot more and maybe one of the first thoughts that a new user should be introduced to - while the models are as accurate as possible, some of the controls have been rationalized. This IS a good thing. But we're in the dark until it's explained what was changed and how to use the rationalized controls to get into the ballpark of the real ones.
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I get why you want this, but you’re not “in the dark” by any means. “I dialed in the Amp to look just like the knobs in that picture, but it sounds kinda dead. Could use a little more Master Volume. (Tweak) That’s better... (tweak) better still... (tweak) now it’s too flubby... (tweak) yeah, that’s it!"
 
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axes

axes

Inspired
Rex said:
I get why you want this, but you’re not “in the dark” by any means. “I dialed in the Amp to look just like the knobs in that picture, but it sounds kind dead. Could use a little more Master Volume. (Tweak) That’s better... (tweak) better still... (tweak) now it’s to flubby... (tweak) yeah, that’s it!
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Yeah, I get it, but that's still not too scientific :)
 
Joe Bfstplk

Joe Bfstplk

Axe-Master
Rex said:
Actually, it's way scientific. You're making decisions based on empirical evidence at the moment it's discovered. ;)
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A listing of controls where the original tapers have been modified for whatever reason would let people at least get in the ballpark as a starting point for tweakage. Not everyone has time to burn on deducing things that are already known by others. A big part of science is building on others' knowledge....
 
Rex

Rex

Legend!
Joe Bfstplk said:
A listing of controls where the original tapers have been modified for whatever reason would let people at least get in the ballpark as a starting point for tweakage. Not everyone has time to burn on deducing things that are already known by others. A big part of science is building on others' knowledge....
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63 degrees on the steering wheel still won’t help you negotiate the turn. ;)
 
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