EVH's original Plexi and the FAS Brit Brown amp

Youtube blurb on this video:

Probably Ed's first session for another artist - Nicolette Larson - for her Warner Brothers debut record released September 1978.
Song title is 'Can't Get Away From You' Ed did this for 'free' as a favor he owed producer Ted Templeman. I'm not sure, but I think it's because of Ed leaking a rough mix of 'Your Really Got me' back then before the 1st VH record was released, forcing them to release that as the first single instead of 'Running With The Devil'. Who knows... What we do know is this is Ed at a young age playing all guitars on this track and fitting in great. This record also featured Albert Lee, Michael McDonald and James Burton. Engineered by Don Landee.




Take away the Ed licks and listen to the tone. Espeically the rhythm track after the solo where it's a bit more isolated. The same sound as the Letterman vid in 85.
 
Great thread Narzugon.

I think not having a tone knob on his strat contributed too. I have a blower switch and it gets closer to that sound.

Thx for sharing the preset!
 
I don't really know much about Eddie's original Plexi other than what is on the web.

The Brit Brown was built by ear.


Cliff,

John Suhr finally "came clean" w/ the info on Eddie's # 1 …. ( I don't understand it, but I'm guessing you will ) ….

John has been saying ( for years ), it was "essentially a stock" 12,xxx series Plexi" ..., with what he referred to as "component drift" ( I guess that means not all Plexis were identical, because Marshall sometimes substituted components based on what was available ? ).

Anyway, this is what he posted in a thread over @ TGP ….


Originally Posted by Husky ( John Suhr ) – 10/26/2014 @ 11:59 am

Not quite 100% stock, but pretty damn close ….

V1 – Split cathodes.

A 470uf/16V capacitor was added on the stage before the follower across the stock 680n ( the only actual "mod" ). First tube had 2 – 820 ohms resistors ( not the norm but stock ). That cap was the only thing “modded” from stock ….


Big spotlight dimmer ( Variac ) yes ! Dimed controls ! He demonstrated 2 feet away from me with a thin pick and small frets. He sounded 100% like EVH ….

Yes he changed the bias, but was not running hot at all. He was in range for that voltage. The Amp was producing 50W with his settings. More like 95V. He set it so the pilot light starts to dim when playing notes in the G string. Not very scientific, no measuring. I also heard him play with no dimmer and there really wasn't a big difference. More noticeable in feel though ….

Between this latest information and what I had in Post # 9 it might be all there now ?

I don't know how the "Brit Brown" or "FAS Brown" would compare ? But since you went to all the trouble of adding a Variac control for us, I thought you might want to revisit those models to see if they warranted any changes ….


THANKS !
 
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you are right..in this interview : "Eddie Van Halen talks about his classic tone and amp part 1" at 5:20..he said .."..the sound starts with your fingers.."
 
Thanks for bringing this up RD. I've been working on a similar post asking what Axe parameters would allow one to match or come close to those components. I'm compiling a list with what I know filled in. A fun "project" to use for educational purposes.

Quoted for simplicity with latest Suhr (rehashed) info.

Here's some information that I've seen posted around the webz on the specs of Ed's # 1 ....


Eddie’s Plexi # 12301 ( VH 1 to Carnal Knowledge ):

· Split cathode V1a 250uF / 820,V1b .68 / 820
· All coupling caps are 0.022uF, Bright channel coupling cap is 0.0022uF
· bright cap on vol pot 0,005uF
· 470k mixer resistors
· 470pF mixer bypass cap
· Bypass cap on V2a is .68uF
· 33k / 556pF tone stack combo
· 47k NFB resistor at 4 ohm tap
· 220k bias splitter resistors
· uF cap on presence control
· 47pf on PI


John Suhr ( v2 fat cap and other mods ) – 1[SUP]st[/SUP] restoration:

· Split cathode V1a 250uF / 820,V1b .68 / 820
· All coupling caps are 0.022uF, Bright channel coupling cap is 0.0022uF
· bright cap on vol pot 0,005uF
· 470k mixer resistors
· 500pF mixer bypass cap
· Bypass cap on V2a is .68uF and a 220uf to 470uf
· 33k / 500pF tone stack combo
· 100k NFB resistor at 4 ohm tap
· 220k bias splitter resistors
· uF cap on presence control
· .022uf output couplers
· 47pf on PI


Dave Friedman ( latest restoration ):

· Split cathode V1a 250uF / 820,V1b .68 / 820
· All coupling caps are 0.022uF, Bright channel coupling cap is 0.0022uF
· bright cap on vol pot 0,005uF
· 470k mixer resistors
· 500pF mixer bypass cap
· Bypass cap on V2a is .68uF ( back to stock )
· 33k / 500pF tone stack combo
· 100k NFB resistor at 4 ohm tap
· 220k bias splitter resistors
· uF cap on presence control
· .022uf output couplers
· 47pf on PI


Here’s what “we think” we know:

· The Power Supply Sags …. In fact, Dave Friedman said that in Eddie’s # 1, the power supply sags about 70+ volts with normal wall voltage dimmed, and 50 some volts with a variac on it” ….

· B+ and Plate Voltages drop …. Mark Abrahamson ( Rockstah ) said the B+ in the amps he’s measured were around 363 dcv, and while he evidently didn’t take the 120v measurement, he estimated that they would normally run between 410 dcv and 500 dcv ?

· Tube Bias drops …, which is why everyone who uses a Variac says to “crank the bias” ! Again Dave Friedman’s comment was: “Now I have said this before, the amp is biased to like 85ma with normal wall voltage and then dropped with a variac to 90 volts. This will bring the bias down to around 50ma.” Of course “the” amp he was referring to was Eddie’s # 1 ….

· Don't underestimate the contribution of the 6CA7 Power Tubes ....

The EL34 is a pentode, while the 6CA7 ( which delivers a similar range of power output ), is a beam tetrode which RCA referred to as a beam power tube. Although power pentodes and beam tetrodes are based on different principles of operation and have different internal constructions they are functionally closely equivalent.

That being said, they both sound different. The EL34 for the most part has a creamy sound with a little grit ( crunch ). The 6CA7 has a tight bottom end and good mids with articulate highs. A lot of people call them a small version of a 6550.


I’m guessing that the frequency response of the Power Transformer gets restricted somewhat too ? But I’ve never been able to find any specific measurements on that ?

* Finally, don’t forget that Ed used a lot of cord ( extra capacitance ) in front of the Amp, as well as an Echoplex EP-3 as a slight booster …

And both Dave Friedman & John Suhr have been quoted as saying, the Amp was "stock" ( ie; no Jose Mod ), but there was one thing that neither will comment on ?

It 'might' have been John Suhr that said the amp was a very bright beast with a little more gain than a stock 12,xxx Plexi.


IMHO- It all comes down to what the Variac contributes ? Here's what John Suhr had to say about it over @ HRI ....


Posted by: Suhr -
8/1/2013 @ 5:09 pm

Here is the thing though.

Lowering the plates is one thing but lowering the heater voltage also changes the tone and is the way Ed's was run. You can safely run the heaters on the low side it is a major component of the "brown sound".

There are other amps with low plate voltages like that, Fargen’s Marshally amp. That is only like 25W but uses two EL34's as well which equals low plate or screen voltage.

To my ears, as well as last time I talked to Dave Friedman though it isn't 100% the same unless the heaters come down a bit as well ( the SL68 does drop the heater voltage too ). Of course there is a voltage drop that is acceptable and in some audiophile circles believed to extend tube life, you can also go too far and hurt tube life. For that reason it should not be adjustable.

Posted by: Suhr - 8/2/2013 @ 12:51 pm

Heaters in a plexi are AC there are no diodes.

Take a variac and run a stock plexi amp with 500V plates at 120VAC at 95~90V, around 435 B+ is what I read on his, rebias the power tubes for the B+ you are reading and you are good to go. I wouldn't go lower than 5.5. You might be able to drop them independent of the B+ a little with a larger wattage resistor but it will get real hot and the value will be real small.

Remember though you cant variac an amp that has any switching or regulators in it.

I remember Ed's conversation clear as day when I picked his brain while working on his amp in 91’. He brought the original light dimmer he used too.

The amp was stock ( almost ) but the OT was replaced and there was a small mod to increase bass response.

The Marshall was a little hotter circuit than typical though, there were a few versions Marshall would use that had slight differences.

He used the variac to turn the volume down until the pilot light dimmed when he played a note on the G string. He said that was the main amp used on all records until F.U.C.K. He said everything else was engineer and the pedals he may or may not have used, the Echoplex, EQ and said he honestly just didn't remember and never knew it would be such an iconic elusive tone or he would have documented it all. IMO it had everything to do with his attitude and engineering. I heard him play through that amp with and without the variac and surprise ! ..., it all sounded sick and was Ed's tone in a box. In fact I doubt anyone could really tell a difference when he is playing it. It was more of a loudness and feel thing. When I played thru it, I sounded nothing like him, it just sounded like a freaking loud Marshall.

Originally Posted by Husky ( John Suhr ) - 10/26/2014 @ 11:59 am


Not quite 100% stock, but pretty damn close ….

V1 – Split cathodes.

A 470uf/16V capacitor was added on the stage before the follower across the stock 680n ( the only actual "mod" ). First tube had 2 – 820 ohms resistors ( not the norm but stock ). That cap was the only thing “modded” from stock ….

Big spotlight dimmer ( Variac ) yes ! Dimed controls ! He demonstrated 2 feet away from me with a thin pick and small frets. He sounded 100% like EVH ….

Yes he changed the bias, but was not running hot at all. He was in range for that voltage. The Amp was producing 50W with his settings. More like 95V. He set it so the pilot light starts to dim when playing notes in the G string. Not very scientific, no measuring. I also heard him play with no dimmer and there really wasn't a big difference. More noticeable in feel though ….
 
Thanks for bringing this up RD. I've been working on a similar post asking what Axe parameters would allow one to match or come close to those components. I'm compiling a list with what I know filled in. A fun "project" to use for educational purposes.

Quoted for simplicity with latest Suhr (rehashed) info.

Ya know ..., I was NEVER that much into this in terms of "tone chasing" until I started following Pete Thorn .... He's really opened me up to the raw aggression of a somewhat untamed Plexi ....

Prior to the Axe-Fx ( Ultra, then II, then XL ), I was way more into MESA tones ....

Don't get me wrong, they're still great. But I have to admit Mr. Thorn is on to something .... !
 
Why does nobody sound like Jimi Hendrix? Or Robin Trower? Or, Stevie Ray Vaughn? Or, Eric Clapton. Or, for that matter Eddie Van Halen?

Hint: it's not the equipment.
.

Stopped reading the thread after this.

People obsess over this tone, when everyone thinks tweaking a knob will nail 'Ain't talking...'

There's a vid out there with him playing a Soldano, and guess what: SOUNDS LIKE ED.

My philosophy: Get close. Then let your fingers do the talking.
 
Stopped reading the thread after this.

People obsess over this tone, when everyone thinks tweaking a knob will nail 'Ain't talking...'

There's a vid out there with him playing a Soldano, and guess what: SOUNDS LIKE ED.

My philosophy: Get close. Then let your fingers do the talking.

You missed the point of the thread then. On the first page of the thread and then many times through out I say that this is for academic purposes and a fun project to recreate in the Axe. It's not a search for the Holy Grail kinda thing. As far as I'm concerned there are several sims already that if the parts are played right nail it.
 
Stopped reading the thread after this.

People obsess over this tone, when everyone thinks tweaking a knob will nail 'Ain't talking...'

There's a vid out there with him playing a Soldano, and guess what: SOUNDS LIKE ED.

My philosophy: Get close. Then let your fingers do the talking.

Who said anyone is trying to sound like him?

This thread is to discuss his Plexi and the FAS Brit Brown...
 
Let me comment on this here.

I always hear on forums (and in the "real world" as well) that "tone's in the bone" or "it's not the gear" or "it's all in their fingers" or whatever. Anyone that says and thinks that is full of what comes out of the south end of a northbound bull.

Of course the players fingers, technique, attack, attitude has a huge impact on their "sound" but are we talking about their "style" or their "tone" when we say things like that? Obviously if EVH, Hendrix, whoever played thru another players gear you would still know it was them, but it wouldn't be their "tone" or "sound" or whatever term you choose to describe it.

If the gear didn't matter, as some people seem to claim, then every guitar player on the planet would be playing a $100 pawn shop Squier strat thru a
Marshall Mini Stack, or a Fender Mini-Twin or the AmpKit for the iPhone. Why would anyone spend 10s of 1000s of dollars on a guitar or amp if "gear doesn't matter?"

Why does nobody sound like Jimi Hendrix? Or Robin Trower? Or, Stevie Ray Vaughn? Or, Eric Clapton. Or, for that matter Eddie Van Halen?

Hint: it's not the equipment.

Those guys have a touch. That's why they're famous. Not everyone can pull that sound off. Buy all the equipment you want, even the exact same stuff all those guys use - you still won't sound like them. In fact, if they showed up in your basement to play your Behringer V22, they'd sound like themselves while you sucked hind tit.

There's a story out on the 'net somewhere that talks about Ted Nugent wanking on EVH's rig, then hearing EVH wank on it, and they were worlds apart. Ted sounds like Ted, and Eddie sounds like Eddie. The gear doesn't matter - technique is the thing.
 
Let me comment on this here. I always hear on forums (and in the "real world" as well) that "tone's in the bone" or "it's not the gear" or "it's all in their fingers" or whatever. Anyone that says and thinks that is full of what comes out of the south end of a northbound bull. Of course the players fingers, technique, attack, attitude has a huge impact on their "sound" but are we talking about their "style" or their "tone" when we say things like that? Obviously if EVH, Hendrix, whoever played thru another players gear you would still know it was them, but it wouldn't be their "tone" or "sound" or whatever term you choose to describe it. If the gear didn't matter, as some people seem to claim, then every guitar player on the planet would be playing a $100 pawn shop Squier strat thru a Marshall Mini Stack, or a Fender Mini-Twin or the AmpKit for the iPhone. Why would anyone spend 10s of 1000s of dollars on a guitar or amp if "gear doesn't matter?"
Finally someone said it. Thank you.
 
Let me comment on this here.

I always hear on forums (and in the "real world" as well) that "tone's in the bone" or "it's not the gear" or "it's all in their fingers" or whatever. Anyone that says and thinks that is full of what comes out of the south end of a northbound bull.

Of course the players fingers, technique, attack, attitude has a huge impact on their "sound" but are we talking about their "style" or their "tone" when we say things like that? Obviously if EVH, Hendrix, whoever played thru another players gear you would still know it was them, but it wouldn't be their "tone" or "sound" or whatever term you choose to describe it.

If the gear didn't matter, as some people seem to claim, then every guitar player on the planet would be playing a $100 pawn shop Squier strat thru a
Marshall Mini Stack, or a Fender Mini-Twin or the AmpKit for the iPhone. Why would anyone spend 10s of 1000s of dollars on a guitar or amp if "gear doesn't matter?"
very true. imagine Hendrix on Band Of Gypsys NOT playing through a FuzzFace. would it have sounded like him ? sure. would it have sounded like it did ? probably not. millions of examples out there...
 
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