Effect Order was Killing My Tone

Scott.A.B

Member
On July 5th my Axe II dreams were shattered as my Corvette was totaled in an accident that was not my fault. I have will have my ultra for a very long time now, since I now have a car payment. I decided to look at all the aspects of why I could not get my tones the way I wanted them. (I have had my Ultra for a year and a half) I had the same complaints that many of you who post to this forum of too much bass, lack of clarity, the amp sims did not sound as I thought they should.

Two things changed the whole game for me first was the 11 Firmware update the second is the order in which I had my effects. by placing my effects in the following order I had all the things that I complained about with the Ultra disappear.

WAH-DRIVE-CHORUS-PHASER-FLANGER-DELAY-AMP-CAB-PEQ-REVERB (Reverb is in series after the PEQ)

By following this effects chain the heavy feeling of the Ultra going into my Atomic Reactor was now gone, I roll off a little more bass with the PEQ but I now have a tone that I am really happy with that does not get lost in the mix and most importantly...... I believe the Plexi amp model I am using sounds authentic. as I have tested the tone by going back to my real Plexi as the benchmark.

I am posting this to try to help others who have struggled with their Ultras as I have. I by far am not an expert on the Ultra by any means, there are people on this forum who know way more than me, but I wanted to share this information with others in hopes that it could help someone as it has helped me. I realize that effect order is completely subjective to the players individual preferences, but it could be useful information to someone.

I hope that this helps,

Scott
 
wow that is some crazy a** sh**t, but Ill give anything a try (even though I have an axe 2 and a 2001 maxima)! thanks
 
Is there a reason you feel that by putting most of your effect blocks before the amp, it made it sound not so heavy?
 
I had my original patch with the effects in front of the amp, but in a different order, I really do not want to remember my old effects order but I think it went

WAH-PHASER-FLANGER-DRIVE-CHORUS-AMP-CAB-GEQ-REVERB AFTER THE GEQ IN SERIES- DELAY AFTER THE GEQ IN SERIES. I believe something in the order of this effects chain was causing the heavy feeling I was experiencing. I went back to the basics, I believe that what I described in my original post is what MXR recommends as an effects order for their effects.

Scott
 
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Effects before a drive will just get distorted and turn to mush. This isn't an Axe-FX specific thing. This is true with real world gear.

Your new order is a pretty common order for guitar rigs. In the Axe, sometimes you may want to add or move effects after the cab to simulate recordings (EQ, reverb, compression, chorus, delay, etc).
 
In your old order the delay comes after the reverb...that's not normal.
Delay before reverb or parallel is what you usually find in other multi-fx-processors.
 
This post was originally written (and longer lol) for another site whose users are not that familiar with the Axe-Fx, hence the somewhat simplistic approach. I edited to point out the aspects that I believe to be relevant to the topic of this thread.
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I use my Ultra for two purposes, 1) recording and jamming at home going direct to computer and primarily listening over headphones and 2) playing with my band whereby I use the power amp section of a tube amp into a 4x12 cab.

The conversion between the two modes is a single option in the Ultra that allows me to Enable/Disable Cab Emulation.

This is my standard template where by far the only thing that really changes between my standard patches is the Amp model.

Compressor:
I use this more for getting a bit of extra grit out of the amp rather than Compression.
Setup3.jpg



PEQ-1:
The first somewhat interesting aspect of this setup is the use of a PEQ in front of the amp. One of the things that I personally struggled with is rounding out the highs and avoiding 'farting' on the low end. I was able to achieve this by using High Pass and Low Pass blocking in front of the amp. The frequencies set are dependent on the individual amp type and are also affected by the Cab type.

This configuration is relatively new to my setup but it has dramatically improved my tone and also my placement in the band mix as I can now increase my volume (to sit better with the drummer) and not drown out the vocals. I stand out more and also have the ability to add more clean and round bass to my tone without clashing with the bass player.
Setup4.jpg



Drive:
Drive is bypassed by default and its state is controlled by the FCB1010. I favor the TS808 with a relatively low drive, volume and mix setting but this depends quite heavily on the amp type. I strive for having just enough additional drive to noticeably saturate the distortion enough for additional compression and scream during solos. I rarely use the Drive on rhythm as I like adding Compression there instead if more 'meat' is desired.

Amp:
Whole posts can be written on the various options available in the Amp block. While I have a rudimentary understanding of what each particular parameter does and its tonal effect, I do not have deep knowledge by any stretch of the imagination. I find that I am always tweaking the following as a matter of course to get the tone I am looking for given any particular Amp/Cab combination:

1. Depth - I tend to go here first before going to the standard Bass control. Coupled with Low Freq Resonance works well for me when tweaking low end.
2. Damp - this one has a very noticeable effect on overall tone and the point at which the distortion occurs. It also affects volume and therefore is difficult to be objective about since louder inevitably always sounds better to human ears.
3. Thump - most amp sims leave it off in the Axe, I like it so I always seem to be adding a bit. It does exactly what its name implies, gives a bit of "thump" and is most evident with palm muting which I do a lot (not the metal chugga chugga type though:) ).


PEQ-2:
The second PEQ is used to bring back some of the frequencies blocked by PEQ1. The curve here will heavily depend on the amp and cab combination and I tweak this setting when using different amp/cabs in this template but final tweak is always done when in a band situation using the power amp and 4x12 cab. While the High Shelf tends to remain the same for most amps, the 2.5dB boost at 182 Hz used in this patch varies with different amps. The JCM tends to favor the highs and this boost gives it some girth to my ears.

Setup9.jpg



Setup10.jpg


Gate/Expander:
As mentioned above, I prefer the Gate/Expander to the noise gate included in the input block. Seems more transparent and flexible when used with sidechaining. The sidechain signal is set direct from input (guitar). Having the Gate after the amp sounds best to me and allows me to achieve a very noise free signal that decays relatively naturally. As with any other noise gate, decay will be more abrupt than not having one in the signal chain. Some players hate them others love them, highly personal choice based on playing style and inherent noise of the overall chain.


I tweak this block for every patch too as it depends highly on the amount of drive in signal preceding it.

Vol/Pan:
Straight forward Volume block controlled by an expression pedal. I place it in front of the effects to allow the effects to bleed through and complete on volume changes.

Chorus:
I don't use it much but its nice to have available. It is initially bypassed and controlled by the FCB1010.

Reverb:
Reverb is not bypassed by default but its mix is controlled by an expression pedal (in tandem with the Delay). This allows me to mix these effects in real-time from pure dry to quite heavy wet. I prefer running Reverb and Delay in parallel to each other as well as in parallel to the dry signal. For me, it allows for a heavier mix of effects without really losing the punch of the overall sound.

I mix this signal at 100% coming out of the Reverb block and then balance its dominance using the Level setting. I balance primarily against the Delay level to achieve the sound I want.

The dry/wet mix is controlled by the value of the Input Gain setting which is the one that is controlled by the Expression pedal.

Delay:
I opt for the MultiDelay block setup similarly to the reverb whereby its mix is controlled via the Input Gain level as set by the expression pedal. Note that the same expression pedal controls the mix of both the Reverb and the Delay.

The Delay overall comparative level is set via its Level control.

Vol/Pan 2:
The second Volume block is simply there to mix the dry signal with the wet of the Reverb and Delay. Hard wired and serves no other purpose except to maintain a good overall volume regardless of the mix of the effects.

PEQ-3:
The third and final PEQ is used on the signal coming out of both the Reverb and Delay and simply does High Pass Filtering to eliminate some of the lows. It tends to remove the 'boominess' than can result otherwise. The Reverb and Delay do have built in High and Low Pass filters individually, I am lazy and opted for a single filter instead.

Setup17.jpg



Filter:
The Filter block is used to add 3dB of gain to the overall chain and is toggled by a button on the FCB1010. I use it to quickly add volume for leads, such it is initially bypassed.

Cab:
I favor the Ownhammer IRs, this patch is using the Mesa V30 cabs in a stereo configuration. When recording I change to using dual cabs in Mono mode and panned as the quality of the IRs increases in Mono mode.
 
That layout is really something.............It really shows how flexible the Ultra really is....I would have never come up with something like that
I am still making baby steps compared to that. I'm impressed

Scott
 
While I really appreciate the compliment, let's be clear that I am but a leech on this site soaking up the valuable knowledge that is supplied by the gurus that frequent this site and share their valuable knowledge. Next time I have the Axe up and running, I will post up the patch so you can give it a shot, see how much you like it then as looks can't compete with utility.
 
Its attached. Things to note about the preset:

1. Using User Cab 3 - Ownhammer V30
2. Vol/Pan expects External 8 as its Expression pedal, no volume if not present, might want to disable it completely
3. Reverb 1 and Multidelay 1 expect External 7 for Input Gain, I suspect tone will be completely dry without it, might want to disable that as well and hand mix these effects per taste

If you have questions, PM me. Have fun!
 

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Here's your chain:

WAH-DRIVE-CHORUS-PHASER-FLANGER-DELAY-AMP-CAB-PEQ-REVERB (Reverb is in series after the PEQ)

Here's what I would do:

DRIVE1-WAH-DRIVE2-AMP-CAB-PEQ-CHORUS-PHASER-FLANGER-DELAY-REVERB (Reverb is in series after the PEQ)

Here's why:

1) The wah sounds different if it positioned before or after your distortion. If you want that classic Hendrix wah sound, then leave it first. If you want a more modern wah sound, then put it after the drive. With my suggestion you get the best of both worlds. If you want to get really crazy, try it after the amp block.

2) By putting your modulation and time-based effects AFTER your amp, you will likely have a cleaner, more useable tone (IMHO). Keep in mind, MXR tells you to put your effects in a certain order because they are assuming that you will be running your "real world" pedal board into an amp. With the axe-fx, we are not constrained to this signal chain.

Hope this helps!
-AL
 
Gentlemen,

Thanks for all the things to try..... Dinkledorf thanks for the patch, Al, I will copy my patch to another location and try your effect order

Thanks for all the suggestions !!!!

Scott
 
I also prefer phaser and flanger in front of the amp block, or using a real amp, for distorted tones. Chorus too for some things. IMO if used post they "chew" the signal more and sound more processed. For clean tones there's not as much difference. For example, listen to EVH on "Ain't Talkin Bout Love", flanger is on for most of the song but it's pretty subtle when he's playing hard/loud/distorted. He backs the guitar volume during the last verse "I been to the edge..." etc, you can hear the modulation more during this section.
 
On July 5th my Axe II dreams were shattered as my Corvette was totaled in an accident that was not my fault. I have will have my ultra for a very long time now, since I now have a car payment. I decided to look at all the aspects of why I could not get my tones the way I wanted them. (I have had my Ultra for a year and a half) I had the same complaints that many of you who post to this forum of too much bass, lack of clarity, the amp sims did not sound as I thought they should.

Two things changed the whole game for me first was the 11 Firmware update the second is the order in which I had my effects. by placing my effects in the following order I had all the things that I complained about with the Ultra disappear.

WAH-DRIVE-CHORUS-PHASER-FLANGER-DELAY-AMP-CAB-PEQ-REVERB (Reverb is in series after the PEQ)

By following this effects chain the heavy feeling of the Ultra going into my Atomic Reactor was now gone, I roll off a little more bass with the PEQ but I now have a tone that I am really happy with that does not get lost in the mix and most importantly...... I believe the Plexi amp model I am using sounds authentic. as I have tested the tone by going back to my real Plexi as the benchmark.

I am posting this to try to help others who have struggled with their Ultras as I have. I by far am not an expert on the Ultra by any means, there are people on this forum who know way more than me, but I wanted to share this information with others in hopes that it could help someone as it has helped me. I realize that effect order is completely subjective to the players individual preferences, but it could be useful information to someone.

I hope that this helps,

Scott
Thanks you!!! Sorry about the car. ☺️
 
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