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Dumble Note flips

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
To me this is like contemplating the square root of -1.... ( I failed my first take at the required Electric Theory course back in college)... That being said - Beautiful sounds generated by everyone on this thread though - carry on! Maybe I'll learn something of value here. Been loving Robben Ford's and Larry Carlton's playing for a long, long, time.... is this a path to emulating their tone?
for me it is emulating some aspects of the dynamic response of how their amps are setup.

Both of them have amps that are specific to their style of playing -- however, their Dumble amps do share certain harmonic qualities that both bring out in their own unique way.
 

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
Sorry, man, I'm back to my original question. Can you define flip?
This is how a friend of mine (who is completely obsessed with this) defines it

"... It sounds KIND of like its starting to feed back, but its not. It flips the note up so that a different harmonic order is heard, or something like that. Blue line Ford is the first place I ever heard it..."
 

Rex

Legend!
This is how a friend of mine (who is completely obsessed with this) defines it

"... It sounds KIND of like its starting to feed back, but its not. It flips the note up so that a different harmonic order is heard, or something like that. Blue line Ford is the first place I ever heard it..."
Sounds like a description of bloom. Is it different somehow?
 

vAmp

Fractal Fanatic
When I received the Axe with fw3 and I played it with a fairly new guitar, I experienced the most gorgeous note flip!!! (?)

I thought Cliff had built this in and I could not believe my own STUNNING playing :shock It was like listening to a CD of a guitar hero.

Well... after a few days, I found it was because the new guitar was not set up so well and in a few positions the g string especially was very slightly touching a fret higher up when I did bends with vibrato, creating some seemingly fading in harmonics more beautifully than you can add them by hand.

When I "corrected" this setup, the amps sounded pretty boring for a while... ;)
And I always wondered if Cliff couldn't add that as an extra for all amps.
Although I think mine got triggered when bending up and doing vibrato, so it was not there all the time or in all positions, but mainly in the fifth position where I play a lot.

Through the firmwares, some presets with note bloom sounded slightly reminiscing (the FAS Leads at times seemed to have some "built in").
 

Tex Axe

Experienced
Can you cross reference the time at which this occurs on the video ? Having the time too the second might help everyone focus exactly where you hear the note flip.

I can tell you on the Dumble sitting here that your left hand pressure can cause the note to sing louder so if you hammered into a note harder slurred it back a whole step and back up
if you brought your index up say just a bit after you hammered the note just a tad harder, the note would indeed flip out and while it did you would have time to slur back n forth and hammer the note again
I think what your hearing is whats Magic about Dumble. He was able to really hone in on touch and if you hammer into a chord it will growl back at you or a single note in this case with left hand touch I am saying you could add just a tad more pressure with index finger and do it quickly and have time to get back up too that note and do it right again.

That being said I can do that on any note on any string on the Dumble I own.
I think what your hearing is Robin being a human compressor and adding in the extra umph at finger pressure on the note
releasing it quickly then slurring right back too it..

I can speak only from experience with the Dumble that is sitting here.
With finger pressure of my left hand I can control what the note does or an entire chord.

Every note rings out and you can use vibrato and touch and rock the string right into saturation from any note on the fretboard.
Hammer that first note with index harder its going to leap off the neck.

The Ojai amp is a prime example of this and perhaps overkill because you have to mute other strings and really be on top of that or they will run wild.
The Odsr I have sitting here is a hybrid of 183/102 so the builder said.
It only came too life after we redid all the new parts with known used Dumble parts and Glass
and in both cases it improved the sound ten fold.

What you are hearing this note flip its the actual amount of pressure YOU put into the note to begin with before the slur it leaps off the neck.

To help us though can you give the counter numbers at where this occurs in the video..
Ask Tagster if his 183 did that or not.

Tag knows tone.
 

Tex Axe

Experienced
On the Dumble here you can lean into a note it will sustain and start into the order of harmonics.
Not unlike when you use root in bass chord then 3rd in bass or 5th in bass the order of the harmonics change.

If you play an a chord and it saturates well you can literally move position of where guitar is too front of amp
and the chord will flip and you can hear root third fifth you can do that by moving your body or the guitar or both.

It can do that with single notes too.. Too me if you hit a note with one finger and it takes off into saturation and then some I call that bloom.
If the note takes off on its own and the guitar shakes in your lap all on its own the amp is dialed in very very well.

The guitar will start shaking and it feels almost like you are getting shocked but its coming alive..
You hammer down on a Dumble that is well tuned it will do this..
Im not talking slop either because it will show that too...

These amps show everything if your playing sloppy ect.
I can hear a complete difference in black dunlop picks and red ones.
Some call that chirp. Some like that some it drives crazy as the pick noise comes before the note.
I eliminated that by using black picks and lightening up my touch.

Its touch on both hands and it indeed can make or break the sound.
With Axe you can go in and dial out what bothers you.

I can tell you right now a well dialed or tuned Dumble will show every wart you have as a player.
Even the Axe does that with me It forces you to be on your game.

Technique will come into play and muting.

Funeral< John> was just touching on this subject and I said I heard some glitches or odd sounds
and he said you have to stay on your fingertips and pay close attention and mute with right thumb
as well sides of left hand finger tips to keep other strings silent nothing extra in nothing extra out.

But if you want the note to flip turn it up get some huevos going and work on differing finger pressure technique
to see if it reacts too you that way if it does not mess with dynamics.

As John tells me Use your ears.. Use them.
If they tell you na close but no cigar then build the cigar
again and fire it up smoke on that awhile and if you like it store enter enter.

Then watch 8 hours fly right bye like nothing is going on outside that could possibly be more important.
 

Tex Axe

Experienced
0.05 of the video ? Right at very beginning ?
I think I hear what your saying and its just how touchy the Dumble is
you lean into a note say hard at first its going to leap off the neck and stick..

Sounds too me like he is emphasizing that phrase harder at first
and you kinda hear the note slam and stick then he slurs back too it.

If in fact that is at 0.05 of video Its at the start in first phrase just at 0.05 into the video what Im hearing that is.
 

Tex Axe

Experienced
Previously shared (post #13)
The flip occurs at the end of the 5th note (@ 5 seconds). Petty hard not to hear it, at least what is claimed to be a flip...go to the audio link inside this persons post.
Telecaster Guitar Forum - View Single Post - Note-flipping
In hear it kinda bump or spike in volume of the note @5 seconds
A sparkle in your china...
Sounds like a small flare of saturation or the note saturating again very quickly I wonder if that is not pressure of the left hand ringing the note out ?

Cause with a Really well tuned Dumble they will do that.
I can hammer a note with one finger and it will take off I can squeeze into that note and it will take off.
if you hiccuped almost or let off and hammered back on quick enough it would take off or spike some
its just going right back into saturation FAST.

The most touchy amp I have ever played.

You settle right into it and you can feel how much to push in.
Its all Touch.

Back to its all in the hands..
In that case I feel it is but see if the amp did not respond that way it would not matter how great your hands were..
 

PacoCasanovas

Fractal Fanatic
Sounds like a description of bloom. Is it different somehow?
Not in my understanding (that's what I heard on the 1st video) - bloom is made by a sagging preamp power supply (bigger dropping resistor in the load line of the power supply) and what User "Tex Axe" described "as the entire sunday". Hard to get, in such clarity and definition if it was never there before...

@ Tex Axe: Thank you for your comments. The D-Style thing is somehow funny to me. Scott Lerner once told me the basic structure how it's done ( I don't know what we talked about, must be in 2009 or so, when talked about d-style in the axefx) - there were other dumble aficionados, telling me that the so called magic was not even under the plastic goop, simply under the pcb which was very hard to take out. So the cloners would oversee the special stuff. I knew the theory about the skyliner tonestack and the partially bypass of the tonestack, called pre-amp boost or PAB. So when I revoiced the boogie, I tried to but this stuff into the clean preamp. But when doing it, I found that the boogie sounded best with the original tonestack - that is what you described as the search for vanilla - most cloners do what they "read" not what they "hear" by themselfs ;) . Same with HRM option (which is a marshall type preset tonestack post gain) which I don't like either.....so I ended up with a nice sounding preamp, tuned by ear but with the concept of a d-style amp. I posted the complete story in the ampgarage-message-board, incl. my hand drawn schematics, which a generous member converted into a nice PDF (still missing that I kept the original paradigm of the boogie circuit, but better than nothing, huh).

After Cliff did his 213, it was not that hard to dial similar results....and so it be: the first sound is made by the revoiced mesa, the 2nd is the AxeFxII s/r 213

Cheers
Paco
 

Rex

Legend!
Not in my understanding (that's what I heard on the 1st video) - bloom is made by a sagging preamp power supply (bigger dropping resistor in the load line of the power supply) and what User "Tex Axe" described "as the entire sunday".
Agreed. Here's my take on bloom from another thread.:
I've heard "bloom" used to describe two different things:
  1. A rapid increase in a note's volume immediately after it's been plucked;
  2. A gradual change in the harmonic content of a note as it decays.
I've heard definition 1 (or at least think I've heard it), but only at high volume. I'm not sure of the mechanism behind it; for all I know, it might be a psychoacoustic phenomenon—the ear's and brain's reaction to being assaulted by a sudden loud sound. Or it may be caused by a rapid sag in the power supply when the note begins, followed by a rapid recovery (this would require hitting the power amp hard). Or it may be something else entirely.

Definition 2 is caused by the amp coming out of saturation as the note decays. That causes the harmonic structure of the note to change. It's also influenced by acoustic feedback from speaker to guitar, which introduces resonances that are gradually unmasked as the distortion products decay.
 

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
Better example of dumble flips and what is commonly referred to as the Ford "Blueline" tone

 

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
TKT183? Quinn Amps? - yeah, I know that story from harmonycentral & TGP ;)
What is unbelievable is the number of companies that are offering clones of Dumble Serial #183 (whivh by the way I have personally played many times and the amp really is crazy good).

Quinn had complete access to that amp an he did an incredible job of cloning it.

But a lot of folks claim to make clones of 183 (not sure how unless they had access to a Quinn clone because I know the owner of 183 has not allowed anybody else inside the amp)

1. Ceriatone offers a 183 clone
2. Cause & Effect Amp Works
3. countless AmpGarage builders
 

LVC

Fractal Fanatic
Shad posted the knowledge of 183 at the amp garage message board. So everyone had full access! Tag pre-owned the 183, handed it to Shad so he could clone it, Tag sold the amp afterwards. There was a thread at TGP (which got removed) and one on harmonycentral, which is full of hate and rude language.....IDC ;)

They're saying Tag's Clone (TKT 183) is ready for ... - Harmony Central
Tag is a personal friend and so is the person who purchased the amp from him.

Quinn did not spill all the beans from what I understand -- a lot of misinformation out there!

Additionally, unless you have the original amp on your bench (or one of the few "true" clones Quinn did -- you will not be able to voice amp it correctly

Lovely people over at HC .... :lol
 
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