Dual Delay Live

bread

bread

Power User
I'm using the Brit800 with a big studio reverb and a dual delay. I have the first delay line set at 375ms and the second at 750ms which is giving me the huge sound that I really like.

I've never gone this big on delay before for live use and just wondered if anyone had tried this and what your experiences were ? I'll be putting this through a Martin Audio rig in theaters to audiences of up to 300 to 800 people so thought I'd ask here first. I don't want to see a load of people in front of me with burning torches and pitch forks if i can avoid it ha ha

I have a high diffusion and a feedback of 18%, mix quite low at 16%.

The LR and RL parameters are around 50% of LL and RR.

Thanks in advance.
 
I use delays much bigger than the ones you state, in a live setting. No issues at all. It sounds huge. However, if i'm using big delays, the need for reverb as well diminishes. I tend to use one or the other, but not both, because it becomes too washy. You need your signal to remain clear and punch through. A big delay kind of takes the place of the reverb effect.
 
craiguitar said:
I use delays much bigger than the ones you state, in a live setting. No issues at all. It sounds huge. However, if i'm using big delays, the need for reverb as well diminishes. I tend to use one or the other, but not both, because it becomes too washy. You need your signal to remain clear and punch through. A big delay kind of takes the place of the reverb effect.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your help.

I'll crank it a bit more then :)
 
bread said:
I'm using the Brit800 with a big studio reverb and a dual delay. I have the first delay line set at 375ms and the second at 750ms which is giving me the huge sound that I really like.

I've never gone this big on delay before for live use and just wondered if anyone had tried this and what your experiences were ? I'll be putting this through a Martin Audio rig in theaters to audiences of up to 300 to 800 people so thought I'd ask here first. I don't want to see a load of people in front of me with burning torches and pitch forks if i can avoid it ha ha

I have a high diffusion and a feedback of 18%, mix quite low at 16%.

The LR and RL parameters are around 50% of LL and RR.

Thanks in advance.
Click to expand...



id say you wont know till your in the room if you had a long guitar cable and or wireless setup where you could get out in the room and hear it out front as you played that would help but the room will be empty at soundcheck and things change with people.
Soon as a Mob occurs sound changes...

If you can record the gig and if you know the sound guy at all you might check to see how things
were set by the end of the night double check with him .

Obviously your trying to work that out before show time and there wont be time to edit during the show that would be a disaster for you
and not sure axe edit running live would be a great idea might cause fizzle in your mix...

If you dont have any lap top to adjust on the fly or at sound check then you could practice changing the settings from the front of box..
if the place has great sound crew or guy working the PA then id get with him he knows the room.

He can hear it once your in the Front of House and depending on how long a guitar cable you have you could do some roaming out front just to hear it out front as your band did sound check..

Thats not a great read as the club is empty but the sound guy could tell you or you could get a long guitar cord and wander out front checking how it sounds too you with full band ..

In my case currently Im not playing anywhere live but I run my Axe II through a PA and I use JBL eons for speakers anyway
for my axe so I was kinda using my PA speakers for my axe anyway and I wanted to be able to practice singing at home
and playing and getting my stage mix done on stage anyway using this monitor mixer... So the person that taught me about Axe
said well you can just set your PA mains up as normal through your mixer and run axe into mixer and you can then sing also and add in other musicians into the mix bass keys drums and essentially check your mix at home.. Now I have desktop monitors at home also
jbl and flat response so If im practicing with band , live recording what ever I just adjust my Mix at the board and set vocals well above that.. I run my axe about 11 on input not quite noon... and on the faders channel 1 and 3 of mixer those are up about a 3rd of the way... no where near unity gain as im at home but still I doubt those faders would get near unity level but rather sit about where they are now as I can crank it pretty loud in here and still be mixed under vocal levels..

One thing if your running mfc 101 and instant access then you could just kill the reverb in there or delay or one by one see how it sounds with and without it on stage and out front..


So I essentially would be using my own PA or just hand sound guy 2 cables and mix the band from stage getting our sound levels just right already knowing the board essentially the Sound guy could just turn you up or down..

So I know how the board reacts at home and my system and I know how it sounds outdoors and or in a room that holds 300 plus

I set things flat eq wise the Sound guy could fiddle with that out Front.

Id get him to record the show at the board or see if you can get someone to tape some for you
get an idea of how it sounds and if the verb is too boomy or the delays you can adjust mix..Front of panel..
but at sound check..

You wont have time to adjust it during a gig then you would have pitch forks...
Most of the clubs closed around here so I dont have to worry about that currently no live music scene and if there is
they just want acoustic or karaoke singers... Not my bag...

Regardless thats just how I approach it I use the PA mixer at home and my mains are my guitar speakers...
if I need to just use those as floor wedges front and back of me I could and just use that as Monitor mix.

Most places around dont have sound guys you mix your own sound or you pay someone to do it..
The clubs did not really have anyone to do that here so its different everywhere that being said since you dont know
the one thing you can know is at least how your rig sounds at home and in bigger situation and partially full or full crowded room
and kinda hear how things sound all the time even at rehearsal if its sounding good there and you guys get a great stage monitor mix
in ear wedges what ever then you should sound great out front..

Depends on the room. The late Great Shawn Lane would sometimes set amps facing different directions off stage if the room was dead
he would place delays say every 10 ms off on those amps and literally liven up a dead room.

He would know at soundcheck if the room was dead or not. He knew his gear already well in advance and using delay tricks could essentially tune the room..

You might find those off set delays create their own natural reverb and fool the ear into thinking there is more verb on then there actually is.
So that being said you might wind up trying that delay with and without reverb being on..

Just to hear how it sounds and you could do a song or two without reverb and record it at sound check even from back of room
to kinda see ok this is how we sound at soundcheck this is how we sound with 800 people between us and the back of the room.

The real way to know is show up early and get a feel for that room if you can of course..

If it sounds great at lower volumes and cranked up and you have ran this with band and it sounds great in rehearsal you should be fine
should sound ok..

if its too boomy or clacky though then knowing how to program from front panel will help but just a quick tweak at sound check..
laptop with axe edit and being able to get out front might help..

If you had wireless Daw setup you could essentially mix with that out front..
But Id get aquainted with sound guy at sound check ask him about the room.

Sound check should reveal alot of course it would be empty at that time
so 300-800 people will effect sound..

id record your gig also so you know oh ok thats how we sound at lo levels or full peak..

Thats just for your ears and eyes to reference from...
The band ect..
 
Tex Axe said:
id say you wont know till your in the room if you had a long guitar cable and or wireless setup where you could get out in the room and hear it out front as you played that would help but the room will be empty at soundcheck and things change with people.
Soon as a Mob occurs sound changes...

If you can record the gig and if you know the sound guy at all you might check to see how things
were set by the end of the night double check with him .

Obviously your trying to work that out before show time and there wont be time to edit during the show that would be a disaster for you
and not sure axe edit running live would be a great idea might cause fizzle in your mix...

If you dont have any lap top to adjust on the fly or at sound check then you could practice changing the settings from the front of box..
if the place has great sound crew or guy working the PA then id get with him he knows the room.

He can hear it once your in the Front of House and depending on how long a guitar cable you have you could do some roaming out front just to hear it out front as your band did sound check..

Thats not a great read as the club is empty but the sound guy could tell you or you could get a long guitar cord and wander out front checking how it sounds too you with full band ..

In my case currently Im not playing anywhere live but I run my Axe II through a PA and I use JBL eons for speakers anyway
for my axe so I was kinda using my PA speakers for my axe anyway and I wanted to be able to practice singing at home
and playing and getting my stage mix done on stage anyway using this monitor mixer... So the person that taught me about Axe
said well you can just set your PA mains up as normal through your mixer and run axe into mixer and you can then sing also and add in other musicians into the mix bass keys drums and essentially check your mix at home.. Now I have desktop monitors at home also
jbl and flat response so If im practicing with band , live recording what ever I just adjust my Mix at the board and set vocals well above that.. I run my axe about 11 on input not quite noon... and on the faders channel 1 and 3 of mixer those are up about a 3rd of the way... no where near unity gain as im at home but still I doubt those faders would get near unity level but rather sit about where they are now as I can crank it pretty loud in here and still be mixed under vocal levels..

One thing if your running mfc 101 and instant access then you could just kill the reverb in there or delay or one by one see how it sounds with and without it on stage and out front..


So I essentially would be using my own PA or just hand sound guy 2 cables and mix the band from stage getting our sound levels just right already knowing the board essentially the Sound guy could just turn you up or down..

So I know how the board reacts at home and my system and I know how it sounds outdoors and or in a room that holds 300 plus

I set things flat eq wise the Sound guy could fiddle with that out Front.

Id get him to record the show at the board or see if you can get someone to tape some for you
get an idea of how it sounds and if the verb is too boomy or the delays you can adjust mix..Front of panel..
but at sound check..

You wont have time to adjust it during a gig then you would have pitch forks...
Most of the clubs closed around here so I dont have to worry about that currently no live music scene and if there is
they just want acoustic or karaoke singers... Not my bag...

Regardless thats just how I approach it I use the PA mixer at home and my mains are my guitar speakers...
if I need to just use those as floor wedges front and back of me I could and just use that as Monitor mix.

Most places around dont have sound guys you mix your own sound or you pay someone to do it..
The clubs did not really have anyone to do that here so its different everywhere that being said since you dont know
the one thing you can know is at least how your rig sounds at home and in bigger situation and partially full or full crowded room
and kinda hear how things sound all the time even at rehearsal if its sounding good there and you guys get a great stage monitor mix
in ear wedges what ever then you should sound great out front..

Depends on the room. The late Great Shawn Lane would sometimes set amps facing different directions off stage if the room was dead
he would place delays say every 10 ms off on those amps and literally liven up a dead room.

He would know at soundcheck if the room was dead or not. He knew his gear already well in advance and using delay tricks could essentially tune the room..

You might find those off set delays create their own natural reverb and fool the ear into thinking there is more verb on then there actually is.
So that being said you might wind up trying that delay with and without reverb being on..

Just to hear how it sounds and you could do a song or two without reverb and record it at sound check even from back of room
to kinda see ok this is how we sound at soundcheck this is how we sound with 800 people between us and the back of the room.

The real way to know is show up early and get a feel for that room if you can of course..

If it sounds great at lower volumes and cranked up and you have ran this with band and it sounds great in rehearsal you should be fine
should sound ok..

if its too boomy or clacky though then knowing how to program from front panel will help but just a quick tweak at sound check..
laptop with axe edit and being able to get out front might help..

If you had wireless Daw setup you could essentially mix with that out front..
But Id get aquainted with sound guy at sound check ask him about the room.

Sound check should reveal alot of course it would be empty at that time
so 300-800 people will effect sound..

id record your gig also so you know oh ok thats how we sound at lo levels or full peak..

Thats just for your ears and eyes to reference from...
The band ect..
Click to expand...


Thanks for the information.

I'm using 2 x Yamaha DXR10s as my monitors and running my guitar wireless into the Axe FX - OUT1 to monitors, OUT2 to FOH.

I think I'll set up 2 sets of presets, one with the big delays and one which is my regular setup. I'll use the big delay in the first half then ask sound if it sounds good or not. If not, I'll use the regular bank for the second half. People will just have to put up with it in the first half if they don't like it ;)

Thanks again
 
I run stereo whenever possible and have a dual delay set for quarters/dotted eighths with some diffusion and it's incredibly satisfying :)
 
Any advantage of running two separate delays as opposed to the dual delay block? I've always wondered about this.

You panning hard right and left in the blocks themselves or are you using the output mixer at the end of the block chain?

Sending them to board hard panned and they can blend accordingly?

I"ve heard the enhancer isn't great for live use but shines in a studio setting....
 
Gary Moore used delay with reverb and it sounded awesome! I use an expression pedal to blend the effect level as needed. If the FOH engineer thinks it's too much you can easily back off.
 
I too dedicate an exp pedal to mixing in delays (both level and delay tails e.g. toe down is more level with more repeats, while heel down is less level and fewer repeats). A little ducking can help as well. YMMV.
 
I use stereo delay and reverb. the key to keeping things clear is ducking. You can get some killer sound stages without washy issues... me anyhow I'm blown away by the Axe...:p
 
APOGEE123 said:
I use stereo delay and reverb. the key to keeping things clear is ducking. You can get some killer sound stages without washy issues... me anyhow I'm blown away by the Axe...:p
Click to expand...

Yes I duck all my delays for the same reason as you describe.
 
I use dual delays on many of my patches. My preference is to run them in parallel, with one single-repeat delay around 165ms for some slapback,and a second multi-repeat ducking delay as a tap-tempo 1/4 note. I mix them with a modulation controller. This gives me a little note fattening with the short delay, and provides the ability to have a true echo for other parts. I like to keep the mix pretty low on both delays because I don't want to smear the sound of the guitar in the mix, but I *do* want to bring up some atmosphere when appropriate. I use this setup on about 75% of my patches.
 
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