Dual amp setups

rdomain

rdomain

Inspired
Hi,

I was just wondering how many of you run dual amp setups especially for heavy rock/high gain rhythms. For my main heavy rhythm tone, I always do. Does anybody have any extra tips to maximise this setup? I usually run a higher gain amp with a lower gain amp and pan each amp hard L and R. I then sum the 2 paths back to one for post fx.

I seem to be having more trouble than usual with the Axe FX II than I did with the Ultra with regards to getting fat, warm and heavy tones. Don't know what it is. Higher res amps have more top end? Main tones I don't like are harsh tops and thin sounding. Time to go for a ride on my pushie to give my ears a break and come back fresh :)
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but don't you forfeit the High Res. Feature when running 2 amp blocks???
 
Im with the original post. I'm a dual amp setup guy and I'm having a much tougher time in Axefx 2 to get a dual amp tone right. the ultra was a bit of an easier beast. There's something in the high end that's really hard to get right...
 
rsf1977 said:
Im with the original post. I'm a dual amp setup guy and I'm having a much tougher time in Axefx 2 to get a dual amp tone right. the ultra was a bit of an easier beast. There's something in the high end that's really hard to get right...
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Exactly. I'm glad I'm not alone and I'm definitely no slouch when it comes to programming either. Do you pan hard L and R? It sounds like ass when both are centered. It would be handy for micing when there's limited feeds and not having to rely on the sound guy to get your level between the two amps correct.

And yes Kerrlehr, you do forfeit the hi res mode when running 2 amps but I'm fine with that. It sounded fine in the Ultra so it should be fine in the AxeFX II. And Zero, just using a stereo cab is all good and well if you're only recording with the Axe FX. My main thing with the Axe FX is for live purposes. Plugging into a real quad box etc.

I'm about to have another shot but yeah, it seems to be a very fine balance in getting it right with the Axe FX II.
 
I have been working on "Classic Rush" dual set ups. In this case, one amp is dry and dirty, and the other is wet and clean. The wet and clean is to add some shimmer and high end clarity for the more complex passages and the dry and dirty adds the low end growl.

I found the approach that works best is to dial both amps individually so they sound great. Then, I start working with them together through a mixer block. Usually, I wind up with a mix of around 40% clean to 60% dirty which is right at the point where I can start to hear every note in a chord clearly. After that, I'll pull down the treble and maybe the presence on the low end amp and the bass on the high end amp so they overlap less in problem areas of bass and treble. I don't pan either of them hard left or right. I just make sure the nasty bits of either one don't occupy the same frequency space.
 
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Dancing Frog said:
I have been working on "Classic Rush" dual set ups. In this case, one amp is dry and dirty, and the other is wet and clean. The wet and clean is to add some shimmer and high end clarity for the more complex passages and the dry and dirty adds the low end growl.

I found the approach that works best is to dial both amps individually so they sound great. Then, I start working with them together through a mixer block. Usually, I wind up with a mix of around 10% clean to 90% dirty which is right at the point where I can start to hear every note in a chord clearly. After that, I'll pull down the treble and maybe the presence on the low end amp and the bass on the high end amp so they overlap less in problem areas of bass and treble. I don't pan either of them hard left or right. I just make sure the nasty bits of either one don't occupy the same frequency space.
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Would you share that preset please?
 
rdomain said:
Exactly. I'm glad I'm not alone and I'm definitely no slouch when it comes to programming either. Do you pan hard L and R? It sounds like ass when both are centered. It would be handy for micing when there's limited feeds and not having to rely on the sound guy to get your level between the two amps correct.

And yes Kerrlehr, you do forfeit the hi res mode when running 2 amps but I'm fine with that. It sounded fine in the Ultra so it should be fine in the AxeFX II. And Zero, just using a stereo cab is all good and well if you're only recording with the Axe FX. My main thing with the Axe FX is for live purposes. Plugging into a real quad box etc.

I'm about to have another shot but yeah, it seems to be a very fine balance in getting it right with the Axe FX II.
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Yea I run each amp hard right and left and when you bring them together they certainly do sound not so hot. But even combining them outside the Axefx gives the same not so hot result lol.
 
Axe5288, is there any tonal difference doing the mixing of the 2 amps through the mixer as opposed to utilising the amp mixer parameters? I'd love to run the amps blended on both sides but it seems to loose girth and quality. More testing to do today. My poor ears. hehe.
 
rdomain said:
Axe5288, is there any tonal difference doing the mixing of the 2 amps through the mixer as opposed to utilising the amp mixer parameters? I'd love to run the amps blended on both sides but it seems to loose girth and quality. More testing to do today. My poor ears. hehe.
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Not Axe5288, but it sounds like a question for me. No difference in sound. It's about control. I started off using the mix parameters on each amp blocks, but its too cumbersome jumping back and forth between blocks. With the mixing block, you have the big picture in front of you.
 
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well i started thinking about this more and started to work on it. The system I'm finding to be helpful is... I'm running the dual amps into my interface hard right and left from the axefx and listening in full stereo and it sounds pretty good. Next I pan both inputs in my interface to dead center on top of one another and things start to get ugly. I haven't changed anything on the axefx yet, which makes life easier IMO. Next, I start to hear frequencies that are way out of whack when doubled up, mostly the low end, so I go into the global EQ on the axefx for output 1 and start testing reductions there that effect the entire output and I start to see where the problem frequencies are overall. So I go into my amp blocks, still listening in mono, make some changes to those areas and get things under control overall. Next, I go back to my interface and pan the 2 amps hard right and left again and to my shock everything sounds so much clearer and better then what I thought was sounding good before.

I thing I realized is that playing live in most venues things are going to be panned dead center mono so if your mix is off in that scenario then your live sound is going to be in big trouble. I hope this helps a bit!
 
by the way, I made one concrete conclusion. My perception of how much 60hz I need in a single amp block was way too much once i mixed it to mono. I took about 3-5db off 60hz in each amp in EQ tab and it was like the skies parted. I was really dial in way too much lowend overall. And what's funny is playing with the low cut amp parameter helped as well, it's funny how cutting more lowend freq makes the lowend seem bigger. There is a magic area i've found between setting the lowcut between 70-100hz. Where the bass really seems tight and punchy. I have so much to learn... lol.
 
Dancing Frog said:
Not Axe5288, but it sounds like a question for me. No difference in sound. It's about control. I started off using the mix parameters on each amp blocks, but its too cumbersome jumping back and forth between blocks. With the mixing block, you have the big picture in front of you.
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Thanks Dancing Frog. Totally makes sense :)

And good info fst1977 re isolating problem freqs via global eq and then tweaking individual amps. I'll def give that a shot! As you and I have mentioned, a lot of the time the guitar is mixed mono live or a mono pa system so sound will suffer if the amps are hard left and right (as much as I love it) But it sounds like this method can help with it working both ways.
And I was already a convert for removing unnecessary lows. I usually do a low cut of 100hz on average. Leave that for the bass players :)

Cheers!
 
Dual-ing Banjos!

rdomain said:
Thanks Dancing Frog. Totally makes sense :)

And good info fst1977 re isolating problem freqs via global eq and then tweaking individual amps. I'll def give that a shot! As you and I have mentioned, a lot of the time the guitar is mixed mono live or a mono pa system so sound will suffer if the amps are hard left and right (as much as I love it) But it sounds like this method can help with it working both ways.
And I was already a convert for removing unnecessary lows. I usually do a low cut of 100hz on average. Leave that for the bass players :)

Cheers!
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rdomain,

I use dual amps to try emulating Adam Jones' (Tool) dual amp-setup. Initially, I had my two amps (Das Metall and Plexi Treble) panned hard Left & Right, but when I went back and forth between mono & stereo output-modes, I was suffering from "phase-cancellations" which caused audible thin-ness (and frankly, lack of "balls" - lol!) Maybe experiment with testing both output-modes and get them both sounding good to you (I think fst1977 recommended this too) regardless of which output-type you plan to use live.


Bill
 
This is how I run my Dual Guitar Setup

Here is what I do to make it sound as if two real guitarists are playing rhythm: :)
> Two different amp models
> Add delay as shown in the picture below to add subtle difference (8ms - 20ms) in timing between the right and left channel to emulate difference in timing between the two guitarists. The delay time is modulated using an LFO.
> The volume pedals are there to modulate the volume between right and left channel (98.5% - 100%) to emulate difference in dynamics between the two guitarists, again using an LFO.
> If desired you can add a detuner in one of the channels to emulate subtle difference in tuning between the two guitars.


dualguitar.jpg
 
billmeedog said:
rdomain,

I use dual amps to try emulating Adam Jones' (Tool) dual amp-setup. Initially, I had my two amps (Das Metall and Plexi Treble) panned hard Left & Right, but when I went back and forth between mono & stereo output-modes, I was suffering from "phase-cancellations" which caused audible thin-ness (and frankly, lack of "balls" - lol!) Maybe experiment with testing both output-modes and get them both sounding good to you (I think fst1977 recommended this too) regardless of which output-type you plan to use live.


Bill
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I agree with testing both outputs. How you approach solving the problems will depends on whether the phase cancellations are coming from the signal chain or the environment. If you've got everything mono and it still sounds like the Tidy Bowl Man in Concert, then you've got phase cancellations in the signal chain. You can only EQ your way out of that problem by making one source of the offending part of the frequency spectrum lower diminishing it. Otherwise, it's the environment which would be a function of the distance between the speakers, your position relative to them, and the size of the room. That you're going to have to be careful with because you can't count on the venue to allow a perfect set up.

There's an interesting trick that I just read about on the Recording Institute of Detroit website about using delay on one of the channels. It turns out that applying a small delay of about 20ms to one of the sides has the effect of lowering the frequency where phase cancellations become inaudible. The downside is that the low frequency has a slight slap back echo in the bass range.
 
Im still having trouble getting a good Dual Amp tone. Have any of you evolved your dual amp rigs with the new firmwares? Please share a new patch to see how what the layout looks like so I can have a good starting point.

Thanks!
 
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