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Wish drive pedal: Westbury W-20 "the tube" / Nady td-1

Cobrango

Power User
Shawn Lane was using a tube overdrive pedal called Westbury W-20 "the tube" :





Here's a schematic for it (source) :



There's also a pedal based on the Westbury W-20 called Nady td-1, It's basicly the same pedal with a few more knobs I think:



Here's a couple of videos for reference, I think they capture the essence of this pedal. Warm tube overdrive. Maybe Cliff or someone else "get a picture" of this pedal by looking at the schematic alone.

Nady td-1. watch from 2:50-3:15:



The following video is the best demo of the pedal I've found, the overdrive is smoooth.

watch from 3:50, it really sings when he kicks in the tube screamer as a boost in front of the pedal at 7:10.



Adam Ironside says this about the pedal on his youtube channel:

"Hey all. I bought this pedal on high reccommendation from a friend (Mr. ShadyDave) and I was expecting to be a little dissapointed as I already own a Butler Tube Drive and thought that it was the be all and end all in tube overdrive/distortion pedals. I was wrong...
The Nady is a totally different pedal but equally as useful. I spent a little time playing around with it until I stumbled in on this massive, PHAT, smooth, slick tone."

And here's him doing a demo of it:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yuKbaN-K0E

Then there's effectsfreak.com saying this about the pedal (source) :

"The rare Westbury W-20 tube powered overdrive. It goes from an excellent moderate overdrive to full on tube drive. It uses an AC high voltage driven 12AX7 and just destroys all the starved plate design tube pedals."

"Great tone, from mild to warm, to flat out killer overdrive. Like all tube amps the 12ax7 tube will need to be replaced after a while, and the thing just perks up to that nice warm overdrive again. AC powered to get the tube good and warm so it can do its thing."


And of course then there's Shawn Lane talking about his Westbury W-20 "the tube".


At 2:28 he says the Nady is basicly the same pedal as the Westbury, it just says Nady on it - so I searched some more and now I found this:



which is confusing. I'm not sure about the difference between the nady td-1 shown at the top of this thread and this one. I've got the top one and now I'm starting to think that I don't have a Shawn Lane pedal after all, as it seems Shawn Lane was refering to this pedal.

anyhow, I've got the Nady td-1 and it sounds awesome. I would love to have it in my axe-fx. Is there a way to make a drive block out of it?

EDIT: I just found this:

"I absolutely love my TO-2. It really sounds a lot better than the TD-1 (and my V-Twin as well). The TD and V-twin have a lot more cream (s'mud t'me) to the sound. I don't personally like that sound. I like a natural stringiness with sustain and that the TO does very well. The TO sounds a lot bigger as well. It sounds like amp distortion. The other two sound like stompboxes."


meaning there *is* a difference between the nady td-1 and nady to-2... crap! I bought the td-1 thinking it was "the Shawn Lane pedal". meh!
apparently I'm looking for the Westbury W-20 "the tube" or Nady to-2 and not the td-1. why does this have to be so hard? :p well it's still a good pedal, but now I've got to get my hands on the nady to-2.


EDIT 2: new findings from page 2 on the same link as EDIT 1:

"Next up is the Nady TO-2. An overdrive, it has about half the gain of the TD-1. I find this to be plenty of gain for just about all purposes. With the gain set to about 1/4, you've got SRV on "Pride and Joy". This pedal does low gain exceptionally well. It sounds really natural: very chimey, not harsh at all. At high gain, it can get any basic unmodded Marshall type sound. Deep Purple, early ZZ Top, Allmans, Skynyrd, no problem.

As far as frequency profile, I find the TO-2 to be the most even and natural sounding. It's a very articulate sound, that allows for a natural string attack. You can hear the natural string harmonics, unlike the other two. As far as bass goes, it has plenty. I actually like to turn it down a bit for most applications.

I'm extremely happy with the TO-2. I will admit that there are a lot of high end tube distortions that I haven't tried, but of the handful that I have, the TO-2 is head and shoulders above them. I have been searching for this sound in a pedal for thirty years. I think I finally have it. I will find a way, at some point, to make these things available to those of you who are interested. I'll get a schematic together, or something. When I do I'll alert you all here. In the meantime, the TD-2 - the schematic posted by Mr. Huge - is well worth builing (and tweaking)."


EDIT 3: MUHAHAHAHA!!!! I found it!!!! the schematic for the Nady TO-2 - the pedal I'm really looking for (if I can't find a westbury W-20) so yeah, Cliff if you're reading this - take a look at this schematic. The sound of this overdrive is from what I understand, supposed to be some kind of holy grail. Does anyone in here have a Westbury W-20 or a Nady TO-2? Man I'm so excited, I'm on a journey to find this overdrive pedal and somehow get it inside of my axe-fx II :D



EDIT 4: I just found this: http://music-electronics-forum.com/t37256/
 
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Cobrango

Power User
Does that give you any ideas ?
no. LOL yeah this is like a third dimension of ideas oh my. Kind of mind bending, I was on the edge of selling it all reading your post lol.

May I ask for some pictures of the pedals, holmes, all things Shawn related that you have? It would mean the world to me. Like gazing into a eternal museum of music.
 
I remember hearing that the Nady / Westbury drives were knock-offs of the BK Butler Tube Driver. I think that they were forced to stop making them. Hence the new design of the Nady TD-1 unit with tone switches.
 

Tex Axe

Experienced
The westbury was out before the bk butler tube driver its a different design. The nady is same circuit as the tube boost w20 pedal
only it has more switching capability..

Tube driver came later...
 

Tex Axe

Experienced
I think westbury was from 60s and the w20 might have been out late 70s....
Tube driver was out in the 80s he voiced them off the song TUSH by ZZ top
only he was trying to make something like b3 sound...Driving the tube to get that sound..

I think Westbury was out before tube driver and its a different circuit.

as for the bk butler tube driver I actually had EJS original one for a weekend
it was an early version with long silver caps in it..

It took me years to find another one like it and it has that cliffs of dover sound out of the box.

The others dont sound that way..

The Westbury was what Shawn Lane used I started going after those to attain that sound.

Two different pedals entirely circuit wise..

Not that it matters but I think westbury was made in the 60s..
guyatone made them for awhile the original boards were guyatone.
even in the westbury models. Westbury made amps in the 60s 70s.

I see some dates show 1981.. Ej had tube driver by 85 according too butler.

I traded pedals with Ej when we were trading plexi heads..
His buddy talked him out of trading me that cliffs of dover pedal.
Eric thought the sound was going away and when I played it
Id never been closer too the original cliffs tone.

If you want Shawn lane tone westbury or nady
if you are after Ej tone early version tube driver.

If the tube driver does not have the long thin silver caps
it wont sound the same..

Just some things I learned along the trail..

Peace..
 

Tex Axe

Experienced
Different circuit one is starved plate or something like that...
Westbury is quite unique ..

On the 4 knob Tube driver if you roll the tones off on both middle
eq section you will find that EJ cello tone..

His original was set too that and the first volume was barely cracked open 9 o clock and last knob was about 2 o clock.

For Shawn tone part of the trick was the Holmes amps had nkt 275 components in them and you could turn the T knob up
and it would yield that Peace in Mississippi tone with a Westbury kicking those nkt 275s off.

Part of the sound in that first clip you hear is the mix of both.

Ive been inside the holmes amp and its put together with phone wire hair thin
the reverb tank fits in the palm of your hand When I saw the nkt 275s I knew
where that explosive sound was coming from aside from the Westbury tube boost.

Its like putting a ts9 with a fuzz face great sound only the westbury does not compress
like the tube screamer..

So its a different flavor then tube screamer with fuzz face.
You have a tube boosting the nkt 275 and that solid state stays clean
and can get pretty loud..

By the time Peavy cloned those for Shawn into the Profex II,
He was using high dampening where the speaker barely moved much..

Completely different approach to the sound he wanted then say Ej for instance.
Ej moving more air...
 

Cobrango

Power User
Fuzz Face - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Early units used NKT275 germanium transistors" - aha I see.

so tube screamer with low cut all the way down and high cut all the way up? or the trick I found out about the human voice being 300-3400 roughly?

how would you set the eq in the fuzzface? I'll make sure to select the germanium drive type in the fuzzface then :)
 

Cobrango

Power User
For Shawn tone part of the trick was the Holmes amps had nkt 275 components in them and you could turn the T knob up
and it would yield that Peace in Mississippi tone with a Westbury kicking those nkt 275s off.
do you have a link to the Peace in Mississippi tone?

By the time Peavy cloned those for Shawn into the Profex II,
He was using high dampening where the speaker barely moved much..
what do you mean by this? high dampening where the speaker barley moved much? like, lots of dampening? he also used 4x10s (the holmes cab) and I think I've heard from people that he stressed the importance of 10" speakers instead of 12" but I've not seen it from his own mouth anywhere.

here's a picture of the Holmes amp I've tone matched in the thread in the recording section "Shawn Lane fw 18.08"

the highs are there but they're smoothed out in a compressed way it looks like, instead of just cut away like you can see in the top right beneath 20k hz. but that may be the recording device aswell, again this is not how the amp looks like eqwise, but how it looks like recorded through the camera. it could still give some info though.



do you know what speakers Shawn used? I know 10"s but what type/brand?
 
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Cobrango

Power User
aha! eureca! high damping as in damping as in negative feedback, oooh. I thought it was about high cut and low cut for a moment there, I see.

from the wiki: "So what is the correct amount? There is no definitive answer however there are some guidelines. For more vintage tones less Damping is typically desirable. This gives softer power amp breakup and more "baseline" distortion. For modern, high-gain tones more Damping may be desirable as these tones typically rely on preamp distortion and the power amp is desired to be neutral (which many players describe as "tight")"

the negative feedback on the jazz 120 amp is set to 10 so that seems to be ok. maybe that's because it's an SS amp? the vox amps are known for no negative feedback, which muddens the lows and makes it less desirable for shredding. I've never known about this stuff. awesome!

maybe the 10" speakers move less in and out naturally, making them faster than 12" because of more movement in and out, recovery time.

it's like the thing in guitar technique called "economy of motion", the less you move your pick in the same direction after the string is released, the faster you can go in the other direction or next note. this is some awesome reading!

thank you so much for explaining this :)

however, I do not understand what you mean about sweet spot for each string, I mean you can't tune the eq to open strings, that's useless because every note is a different hz, do you mean from the open e on the lowest string to the highest note on the first string to get the bandwidth of what hz the guitar is actually using?

what do you mean about top and bottom 57's? I love the sm57 it's my favourite mic. I want to trade my sm58 for a sm57, I know it's basicly the same but it's not the same. there's a 10hz difference in the lows for example. I just like the 57 more, don't bother to tell me I would not be able to hear the difference people, I'm going for it! lol :D

how do you think he miced the cabs? I've seen one picture where the sm57 was placed where I normally place it, right between the cone and the edge of the speaker - or from that point and somewhere further from the cone/closer to the edge.

this is from his site:



but I also note that the Holmes cab is open back, I have a thing for open back cabinets. Do you think he used open cab because open back is faster?



It's just an idea I got - in theory, open back sounds like a faster cabinet or more suited for fast stuff because in a closed back cabinet, one side of the speaker would be open (the front) and the back or inner side of the speaker could in theory suffer from the closed back and all the "air" or sound moving in the cab. could this affect the recovery time to the speaker? first off it does not sound optimal if the inside of the cab is closed, making the recovery time for one side of the speaker different from the front side which is open.

I do not have enough knowledge about this but to me an open back cabinet gives more sense when it comes to speed since the speaker is open on both sides (in front of the cab and "inside" the open cab, it just sounds logical to have the same kind of environment for the speaker to move in both in and out - to me it sounds like the in and out recovery time should be equal. I have to say I'm not sure if the "in" recovery time is affected by the air already going on inside the cab making it fight frequencies on it's way in, and from the other side being pushed out faster than normal or at least in contrast to the other side where there's no air pushing it it (from the outside of the cab).

I guess if these things were a big problem between open and closed back cabinets nobody would really use the closed back ones, but maybe it's not a problem until the shreddage is at warp speed, lol. I'm just painting my thoughts here, sorry if it sounds stupid.

I wonder if Cliff is reading this stuff, laughing his ass off to my speaker theories lol :D

when you think about it, a speaker inside an isolation cab at least has the same SPL or air pressure pushing from both sides since it's in a box, so the open cab or isolation box at least gives the in and out movement of the speaker the same environment for recovery. hence why the closed back sounds less logical to me as one side of the speaker gets more affected in the recovery state than the other.

is this a problem? could this have anything to do with why Shawn Lane used an open back for his Holmes? did he think about this? should I think about it?

if I have to get back on earth and stick my finger in the sand I guess this is not a problem since so many people use closed back cabs, but then again they're not Shawn, lol.

no offence, but the best Shawn Lane tone in a Shawn Lane thread could have something to do with how Shawn Lane himself did things and why, that's all.

I love discussing stuff like this.

I found these by the way:

POD 500HD | GuitArchitecture.org

Shawn Lane Tone - Page 3 - SevenString.org
 
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Cobrango

Power User
I'm using the 3-knob tube driver. I had a "what the heck" moment and uploaded all my "holy grail" presets to axe change :)

I wrote this on all the presets in axe change:

"I've updated my presets to 18.08 so I'm uploading the ones I've made myself, including my holy grail Shawn Lane presets. I was thinking about keeping them to myself or charge a small amount of $ for them, but I love the fractal audio community so much and feel that I've been given so much knowledge and presets and tone matches and what not, it really makes you understand that sharing is caring. It's not about the money. I've spent countless hours fine tuning my presets, now I'm giving them away for free, you should do the same :) I'm going to share the Holmes cab tone match as well."

I've uploaded my tone match of the Holmes cab as well, it's in the cab section.

not every preset that says Shawn Lane sounds like Shawn Lane, they're just a collection of presets made by me that I've been tweaking trying to nail the Shawn Lane tone.

maybe you like some of them, maybe you don't like some of them - just try and see and play and have fun. it's about having fun. here's some fun for you all, hopefully :)

here you go sir :D http://axechange.fractalaudio.com/search-results.php?search=Cobrango&fields=username&products=0&setups=0
 
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Cobrango

Power User
Sounds like you got it all knocked out already that saves me the pain of doing it..

Good deal..
ah come on :p my tone matching and presets are nothing close of the Shawn Lane tone powers (of 10?) you behold in your cave of holy grail equipment.

get to it mister! and we want pictures and soundclips and videos as you go! in full hd, 3d, 5.1 surround, high res pictures, and high quality audio clips, this is 2015.

haha no I'm just kidding. take your time. clips or pictures are always welcome though :p it's like ear and eye candy. something to chew on while we wait kind of :D
 

Cobrango

Power User
you don't always write in the most understandable way, but when you do it's pure gold. don't bother with the haters, this is about tone and drive pedals, cabs etc. you don't need a stage for that. knowledge, inspiration, motivation, information - all of those.

I kind of see myself in you. I could be on stage if I wanted to (haha, it's so easy to say that right?) No but really I've got some people that wants to play with me, but for me I want to be better at guitar first and finish school maybe. I know I should be playing live also because it's not got to have a big gap between when you played live last time so maybe I will try to hit the stage just to blow the dust off my shoulders.

I don't want to jump into some random pile of people in a band just to play live, I need to resonate with the people I play with, not just in a musical way.
maybe I will get more offers after the 1st of June because I'm having and exam concert then, I'm going for an improvement in grade on that one so I'm going to
do what I do but also give them what they want (what they're looking for) because last time I just did my thing without thinking about what they wanted to hear to tell
if my performance was any good. So I guess this time I have to play with forms and rhythm and all that jazz (no really, it's jazz). I'll go for the heavy metal jazz fusion shred stuff maybe :D

I'll be thinking about you when I'm on that stage Tex Axe, and it's going to be hard since we haven't met, but that's ok. I'll record the whole thing.

I've got haters myself, apparently I've got no chin according to the haters and I've gotten bashed on for that, and because Imy weight is over 100 kg's. I've been sitting on my ass playing guitar and not moving much, also my diet needs to improve (too much fried tofu and vegan junk food, lol) so I'm gonna up my fruit and veggie intake.


anyhow... keep doing what you're doing. you're still someone even if you choose to never share your tones or clips or anything. you're Tex Axe ffs! :) (I know your real name too but you get to keep your nick in here :) )



now where were we? oh yeah

wishlist! westbury w-20 "the tube" drive pedal, Holmes MS Bluesmaster - just because we need more SS amps in the axe right? :D and more tube drive pedals. the comination of no sag, tube drive pedal and high damping is something unique when it comes to the fast stuff for no flub etc. so it would be cool to have more options towards that kind of style, since the axe-fx only has the Jazz 120 SS amp for now. also it would be awesome to see more 4x10 or just 1x10 cabs that does not sound like tin cans, or do they maybe? :p I don't have that much experience about the 10"s.

another feature I miss in the axe-fx (which would be the next level, we're talking wishlist here right?) would be to choose mic positions for each mic, even though it meant a way of scrolling through different cabs/IR's. like if you choose a 2x12" then you could select the sm57 and then choose what mic position buy selecting from a list (which could be a way of changing to a different IR that has that mic position, only it's really the same cab and all so the only thing changing is the mic position, then it does not matter if the cab change as well, that would be a natural thing.
 
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