Drive Pedal modeling - no analogous settings to real-life equivalent?

Ugly Bunny

Power User
Let me first say that for the most part, I love the OD pedals that I've tried in the Axe FX III.

My concern is that they all seem to have essentially the same adjustable parameters which don't equate to the real-life pedal. For instance, my bass player came over and we tried to compare the Microtubes B7K to the Fractal equivalent. The problem was that there just simply weren't the same parameters. The B7K has two three-way toggles that are not represented in the Fractal. It's got the drive, level, and blend, which, sure the Fractal has, but the ranges are nowhere near the pedal's. For instance, I turned up the drive on the the Fractal to 10 and it barely scratched the surface of what the B7K did not even nearly that far cranked.

The character of the distortion was very close and quite desirable, so it's not too big of an issue, but I've noticed this with a lot of things. My favorite OD pedal, the Klon (or any number of klones out there) is not represented in the Fractal. There are a couple guides out there, supposedly, to being able to approximate the tone, but they do not relate to the current options available (and the closest I could get from following the guides got me nowhere near). I figured the Klon would be one of the first and/or most desired models, but I've been wrong before lol.

I'm in no way suggesting that the Helix even TOUCHES the Axe FX in terms of quality of sound or feel, but one thing that's easy to appreciate is that the parameters offered on the models, for the most part, sync up to the real-world equivalents. There are instances where I'm GLAD it doesn't work like this: for instance, the SDD 3000 preamp: all that has is a drive and two selector switches for in/out dB boosts - not terribly easy to work with. The Fractal version is MUCH more user friendly.

Are there any plans to maybe, I dunno, 'skin' the OD models so they're more representative of their namesakes? I guess to someone like me, and I'm sure many others, who aren't familiar with sculpting the tone of an overdrive pedal using specific boosts/cuts/frequencies and messing with biasing and clipping types, is there a more basic way to adjust these or a more thorough guide on setting things so they interact more like what they're modeled after? I mean, an 808 has three knobs - I love that there are options to really go under the hood and adjust everything, but sometimes, man, it'd be so much easier to just have those three knobs (Klon, too).

Anyway, I didn't mean to go off on a tangent, just wondering how people work around the differences between the Axe and the real thing when they are very familiar with the real thing and are trying to replicate it using the Axe's quite different parameters. Thanks!
 
Adjust with your ears, not your eyes.

If 10 on a hardware drive number gets the same tone as setting the virtual drive knob to only 5 that is the way it is.

You simply can’t take a given pedal, copy 3 knob settings and get the same result I’m afraid.

You can however take a given pedal, and with some a/b tweaking, find a setting in the Axe that matches it near exactly.

You can also just use a hardware pedal in front of you like the tone and/or simple adjustments.

Simply not possible to get 1:1 knob matches because there are hundreds of pedals, if not thousands, all with different part values, different pot tapers etc.

I mean think of it this way, I’ve got an old ts808, I’ve got a modern ts9, and I’ve got a couple of “booteek” pedals based off the circuit. They ALL sound different with the same settings, but with some adjustments they can all sound near identical.

Point is, you can’t tske two hardware pedals and copy knob settings, and you can’t tske a hardware pedal and match knob settings in the Axe

Heck, sometimes the “closest” match isn’t even the exact pedal model, like a FAS Drive is a ‘better’ tube screamer than the TS models

Let your ears guide you, just go by what sounds “right”, and don’t worry if it’s not how you’d set hardware
 
My concern is that they all seem to have essentially the same adjustable parameters which don't equate to the real-life pedal. For instance, my bass player came over and we tried to compare the Microtubes B7K to the Fractal equivalent. The problem was that there just simply weren't the same parameters. The B7K has two three-way toggles that are not represented in the Fractal. It's got the drive, level, and blend, which, sure the Fractal has, but the ranges are nowhere near the pedal's. For instance, I turned up the drive on the the Fractal to 10 and it barely scratched the surface of what the B7K did not even nearly that far cranked.

Yeks_Guide_to_the_Fractal_Audio_Drive_Models.pdf
 
Adjust with your ears, not your eyes.

If 10 on a hardware drive number gets the same tone as setting the virtual drive knob to only 5 that is the way it is.

You simply can’t take a given pedal, copy 3 knob settings and get the same result I’m afraid.

You can however take a given pedal, and with some a/b tweaking, find a setting in the Axe that matches it near exactly.

You can also just use a hardware pedal in front of you like the tone and/or simple adjustments.

Simply not possible to get 1:1 knob matches because there are hundreds of pedals, if not thousands, all with different part values, different pot tapers etc.

I mean think of it this way, I’ve got an old ts808, I’ve got a modern ts9, and I’ve got a couple of “booteek” pedals based off the circuit. They ALL sound different with the same settings, but with some adjustments they can all sound near identical.

Point is, you can’t tske two hardware pedals and copy knob settings, and you can’t tske a hardware pedal and match knob settings in the Axe

Heck, sometimes the “closest” match isn’t even the exact pedal model, like a FAS Drive is a ‘better’ tube screamer than the TS models

Let your ears guide you, just go by what sounds “right”, and don’t worry if it’s not how you’d set hardware
While I agree with that, not all the drive models use "rules" that make sense.

On some, you should use hi/low cut, others Tone, while others have "special" cases... Like starting with Tone at 10...

The guide Yek wrote and linked above is a great resource for the details.
 
For instance, I turned up the drive on the the Fractal to 10 and it barely scratched the surface of what the B7K did not even nearly that far cranked.

Adjust with your ears, not your eyes.

If 10 on a hardware drive number gets the same tone as setting the virtual drive knob to only 5 that is the way it is.

Ok it looks like you guys are each on another page. lqdsnddist, decreebass said the Axe Fx III's drive was at 10 and the B7K's was "not even nearly that far cranked." So how would you adjust to that using your ears, or anything for that matter?
 
While I agree with that, not all the drive models use "rules" that make sense.

On some, you should use hi/low cut, others Tone, while others have "special" cases... Like starting with Tone at 10...

Inevitable when using a fixed framework for all drive models.
The alternative being FAS having to provide pedal-specific framework. Like adding a "Glass" control for the Eternity model only. Even Line 6 doesn't do that.
 
While I agree with that, not all the drive models use "rules" that make sense.

On some, you should use hi/low cut, others Tone, while others have "special" cases... Like starting with Tone at 10...

The guide Yek wrote and linked above is a great resource for the details.


That’s why you’ve got to kind of throw the rules out the window and just trust your ears. As I said before, sometimes when I’m trying to match a given real pedal I end up with an unconventional model, or set it how I’d never set a real pedal, but the end result works. The sound is in there, just need to figure out how to get it out. Certainly not always easy, but using your ears is the best advice I can give.
 
Inevitable when using a fixed framework for all drive models.
The alternative being FAS having to provide pedal-specific framework. Like adding a "Glass" control for the Eternity model only. Even Line 6 doesn't do that.
Yep... I am not complaining and completely get it. :)
 
Inevitable when using a fixed framework for all drive models.
The alternative being FAS having to provide pedal-specific framework. Like adding a "Glass" control for the Eternity model only. Even Line 6 doesn't do that.
I guess that was sort of my point; that the one-size-fits-all approach to models has it's downsides; but it is what it is. I'll get it eventually, I'm sure. In any case, Yek, I appreciate the link you shared. I was able to get the "clean klon" sound all set up. I'll mess with the soul food settings later today, I think.

But for what it's worth, the Helix does replicate all (well, most of) the unique knobs, toggles, switches and features of the pedals and amps they model. They'll occasionally add one or two extra for added tweakability, or remove one or two for clarity, or, one of my personal frustrations, for the Mark IV, they put the 5-slider EQ as part of the preamp when it's technically part of the power amp lol! But the B7K, for instance has both of the toggles modeled, though they're two-way instead of the actual pedal's three-way (giggety).

In any case, I'll dive more into your guide. I guess I just need to acquaint myself with the framework and the idiosyncrasies of the various models. I really am super happy with the unit. I've never found so much enjoyment of a dumb little electronic box before :)
 
If nothing else, the lack of a “turn a dial, here’s your tone” implantation in the drive block does reward those who spend some time working with it. Might need to combine two blocks, etc etc, but when you get a really great sound and people think it must of been hardware and you can say “nope, 100% in the box tone” it’s kind of rewarding lol.

With hardware, there was a kind of exclusivity in having a rare pedal. It gave you a tone, and everyone else couldn’t just go to Guitar Center and buy the same thing. Had to hunt eBay, pay a fortune etc.

With modeling, for better or worse, it’s like everyone wins the new car lol. We all can turn a dial and get that awesome Friedman HBE tone. It’s cool, don’t get me wrong, but it also makes our tones a little less unique if hundreds of guys are rocking the same stock preset, know what I mean?

I’m not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but if the box sounds good with stock settings, and can sound great with some tweaks (and playing skill naturally) there is some reward for those who spend a little time under the hood so to speak.

It’s like a car..... factory hot rod with all the go fast parts done at the factory, or a pretty good stock platform, which the owner then needs to spend some time modding. Not knocking someone who wants a turn key car, but kind of have a little more admiration for the guy who did it himself with hours in the garage.

As such, I’m kind of cool either way. If we get 25 new spot on drive models it’s cool, I’ll use them, but if it sticks how it is and I have to do a little work, I’m cool as well
 
Hmm. Maybe a cool idea, then, would be to somehow implement Yek's guide into the app itself - like a hover-over tooltip. So like, if I'm in the Timothy, it could explain the behavior of the tone controls or something; or maybe there could be a little "?" button that you could click on and would display a little text box or infographic exactly what everything does in the model and maybe even some suggested settings or how the various controls relate to controls on the namesake.
 
Inevitable when using a fixed framework for all drive models.
The alternative being FAS having to provide pedal-specific framework. Like adding a "Glass" control for the Eternity model only. Even Line 6 doesn't do that.

The Axe III has all this horsepower so why not? I think it would be a victory for all users to have controls of the Drive models (and amp model for that matter) match the modeled units. Then put all the other stuff on an advanced page for tweakers. I'm not in favor of using Line 6 as the bar for Fractal products. Ideally, it should be the other way around.

Austin
 
The Axe III has all this horsepower so why not? I think it would be a victory for all users to have controls of the Drive models (and amp model for that matter) match the modeled units. Then put all the other stuff on an advanced page for tweakers. I'm not in favor of using Line 6 as the bar for Fractal products. Ideally, it should be the other way around.

Austin
Well-said. I'm not saying we need to do a Bias Amp or Bias FX sort of thing with the graphic of the original pedal, but I would definitely appreciate the exact controls of the various models along with their expected behaviors - as a baseline - and yes, with the advanced options for those that love to tweak things like bias, slurp, swerve, strut*, or any of those other parameters that I have no idea what they do since they're mostly too subtle to notice if you're a thick-headed noob like me :)

*not sure if these are actual parameters or not :D
 
Horsepower isn't what accomplishes what you are asking for... it's the hours (or months) of programming required, and there are only so many hours in the day.
 
Horsepower isn't what accomplishes what you are asking for... it's the hours (or months) of programming required, and there are only so many hours in the day.

Perhaps, but for me, it would be less useful to have 20 more drives and 40 more amps added vs having the existing models function more like the originals. There are arguments on both sides, but alot of the push back on the OP I'm reading seems to amount to "This is the way things are done!". I don't think there's anything wrong with questioning that from time to time.

Austin
 
Amps are there, but Drives still have a long way to go to match their analog counterparts in my experience. My recent pedal is a Prince of Tone from Analogman, i tried to find one drive that feels like that pedal, no luck. Good thing is the Axe Fx receives pedal amazing natural so its fun to buy tem and actually be able to integrate them with the digital domain.
 
Yeah, the amps are pretty amazing. Oddly enough, while I'd prefer direct "ports" of pedals (with all the current deep diving still available, just optional), I actually like having all the amp controls as they are in the Axe. For some reason THAT feel more natural than, say, having some two-knob amp represented with only two knobs. I like that there are almost 100 amp parameters (of course, I also like I don't NEED to adjust most of them if I don't want to lol).

In any case, yeah, I still have my klone that I can throw in a loop - since I guess even mentioning that we wish this had a Klon model is some sort of inside joke/taboo/sin on this board, I won't (other than this current sentence). In the mean time, I guess I just need to sit down and go through the models with the Wiki open and the manual open. As I've gotten older, my guitar playing has become more utilitarian: I plug in and play/practice, not so much just explore tone and the capabilities of the machine I'm using. But I suppose in any field of endeavor it's irresponsible to use a piece of gear you don't fully understand, eh?
 
they're two-way instead of the actual pedal's three-way (giggety).

Nice ;)

Amps are there, but Drives still have a long way to go to match their analog counterparts in my experience. My recent pedal is a Prince of Tone from Analogman, i tried to find one drive that feels like that pedal, no luck. Good thing is the Axe Fx receives pedal amazing natural so its fun to buy tem and actually be able to integrate them with the digital domain.

I have to agree with you on the few drive pedals I've had over the years. Mainly the MXR Distortion+, doesn't sound anything like I remember it. It was a two knob pedal but man it was great for boosting Marshall's, just ask Randy. ;) Well you cant now but you know what I mean...
 
Hmm. Maybe a cool idea, then, would be to somehow implement Yek's guide into the app itself - like a hover-over tooltip. So like, if I'm in the Timothy, it could explain the behavior of the tone controls or something; or maybe there could be a little "?" button that you could click on and would display a little text box or infographic exactly what everything does in the model and maybe even some suggested settings or how the various controls relate to controls on the namesake.
EXCELLENT suggestion!
 
Quite a few threads that talk about settings for a Klon so pretty easy to find some tips on dialing that one in.

Remember the Klon drive knob is a dual ganged control, so it basically lessens the clean boost as you add more OD and vice versa. As sUch, you need different settings to match different positions on the knob.
 
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