Drive Models Suck

Andy Eagle said:
They absolutely don't and they feel totally wrong.
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Just had a band rehearsal last night where my band mate went through my Axe 3 into a Matrix GT1600FX into a single 2x12 Matrix FRFR cabinet. I played on my Mesa Triple Rec into a Mesa 4x12 over sized cab. The Matrix cab was monstrous and pushed air equal or greater to my 4x12 cabinet. We normally run IEMs with no cabinets, or each guitar going through a separate Axe in identical Matrix setups so we had never tried this before.

Last night was the first time we mixed an Axe with the Mesa to see if there was a huge difference and everyone in the band was shocked and blown away by how good the Matrix FRFR212 sounded AND pushed air in the room for the feel and everyone preferred the Matrix setup. That's likely because that Axe is running a Splawn so it has a slightly different sound from the Triple Rec...but they were close and that "in the room" amp feel everyone talks about was there in spades.

It was an eye opening experience for me personally as I've never done an A/B test like this before and just took it on faith the Axe and my Matrix setup was good. This completely justified my setup in my eyes. And when I play alone, I hook up both FR212's to my one Axe and it absolutely trumps the Mesa 4x12.

They absolutely CAN sound and play just as good, if not better...if you know what you're doing.
 
Andy Eagle said:
I have Xitone passive now and a gt1000fx and it's ok but it's hardly my Diezel VH4 half stack.
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BBN said:
Grab 4 XiTones, but 2 behind and 2 in front....spread them out as well.
Create a stereo preset with a different amp L vs. R. You will not miss your VH4 half stack.

I know that's unlikely to happen, but just pointing out that what you described is not apples to apples.
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So re-reading this...Are you (@Andy Eagle) saying that your single 12" speaker doesn't compare to a 4x12 cabinet? Or did you leave information out and you're running many Xitones and we should explore what might be causing you problems with your sound and feel?

Because if you're comparison is a single 12" speaker and frustrated it doesn't push air like 4 12" speakers, we might as well start complaining that a Cessna doesn't fly as fast as an F-18. They're basically equivalent comparisons...
 
RamboMadCow said:
So re-reading this...Are you (@Andy Eagle) saying that your single 12" speaker doesn't compare to a 4x12 cabinet? Or did you leave information out and you're running many Xitones and we should explore what might be causing you problems with your sound and feel?

Because if you're comparison is a single 12" speaker and frustrated it doesn't push air like 4 12" speakers, we might as well start complaining that a Cessna doesn't fly as fast as an F-18. They're basically equivalent comparisons...
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Simple speaker diameter tells you incredibly little about its output. The real measure is total displacement and the thermal limits.

Guitar speakers in particular have TINY displacements. That's fine - they're largely based on technology from the 1960s, and are meant to sound pleasing when plugged into a guitar amp. Given the frequency range they need to work this, this all works great when used with a guitar amp.

But if you compare your favorite guitar speaker's specs (if you can actually find one with proper specs) and compare it to modern high quality drivers meant for pro audio reinforcement, you'll find drivers of the same size that can do 10x the displacement of the common guitar speakers. They'll sound like trash if you plug them into your favorite guitar cab, though.
 
lately, if I play Mesa sims low volume for an extended period on my real cabs (2x112 Mesas and Matrix GT1000fx - cab modelling off/pwr amp modelling on) and then suddenly switch to full frfr with cab/power amp modelling on, I feel like "yup - real cabs are waay better". If i do that the other way around, I feel like "yup, fr is waay better".
 
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Handyman said:
Simple speaker diameter tells you incredibly little about its output. The real measure is total displacement and the thermal limits.

Guitar speakers in particular have TINY displacements. That's fine - they're largely based on technology from the 1960s, and are meant to sound pleasing when plugged into a guitar amp. Given the frequency range they need to work this, this all works great when used with a guitar amp.

But if you compare your favorite guitar speaker's specs (if you can actually find one with proper specs) and compare it to modern high quality drivers meant for pro audio reinforcement, you'll find drivers of the same size that can do 10x the displacement of the common guitar speakers. They'll sound like trash if you plug them into your favorite guitar cab, though.
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I'm tracking what you're saying and I agree almost entirely. I think that's exactly why my Matrix 2x12's sound as good or a little better than the Mesa 4x12's.

I don't think that entirely disproves my point though, particularly in the first sentence. I do think he needs more than 1 speaker, but even then maybe his preset isn't that great.

The thing I tell my older band mates who are a bit resistant to this new technology over tube amps is this: These things are fantastic due to what they can do...but you have to be extremely careful. You can take a great sound and turn it into crap REAL FAST if you don't know what you're doing. Tube amps by nature make it much more difficult to turn a sound bad. It's certainly possible, but more difficult. It is incredibly easy to go way too far with modelers.

It's a hard lesson I had to learn myself over a year of constant tweaking and double checking with reference tones.
 
Handyman said:
But if you compare your favorite guitar speaker's specs (if you can actually find one with proper specs) and compare it to modern high quality drivers meant for pro audio reinforcement, you'll find drivers of the same size that can do 10x the displacement of the common guitar speakers. They'll sound like trash if you plug them into your favorite guitar cab, though.
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Very true, and totally agree.
But the output of the drivers in the XiTone (I have one and I looked up the driver specs at one point) do not have 10x the displacement of the 4 speakers in the Diezel cab.
So it is still not a 'fair fight'.
 
BBN said:
Very true, and totally agree.
But the output of the drivers in the XiTone (I have one and I looked up the driver specs at one point) do not have 10x the displacement of the 4 speakers in the Diezel cab.
So it is still not a 'fair fight'.
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XiTone is cool enough to actually document the speakers they use, which is pleasant and unexpected.

XiTone's 12" active wedge uses the Eminence Beta-12CX, which has a displacement of 188.6cc. The Eminence Governor (closest thing I can find to a Celestion V30 with proper specs) does 64.4cc.

So that's about 3x. Certainly not 4. But you'll mostly be displacement limited at lower frequencies. The Beta-12CX is WAY less efficient in comparison, however. When reproducing higher frequencies four V30s will win because of thermal limits combined with efficiency.

The advantage of using modern drivers when dealing with low frequencies is why lots of high end bass guitar cabinets use high end pro audio drivers these days - the advantage is much more clear if you need lots of power in the bass frequencies.

I use a FRFR system with guitar just for the wonderful convenience and practicality of modern modeling - I doubt my wedge monitor is meaningfully small/lighter that a 1x12 combo amp that would be plenty loud. It just lets me to lots of things a traditional rig doesn't allow for.
 
Timmy

1- Pedal
2- fractal
3- Helix

DS-1

1-Fractal
2-Pedal
3- Quad
4- Helix

SD-1

1- Pedal
2- fractal
3- Helix
4 -Quad

TS808

Indistinguishble for me...
 
Handyman said:
I use a FRFR system with guitar just for the wonderful convenience and practicality of modern modeling - I doubt my wedge monitor is meaningfully small/lighter that a 1x12 combo amp that would be plenty loud. It just lets me to lots of things a traditional rig doesn't allow for.
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Same here.
I own (and used to gig with) a Mesa 1x12 cab. Now I gig with a 1x12 FRFR (RCF, XiTone, Atomic, JBL)....and I'm much happier due to the flexibility.
 
Interesting that quite a few struggled to tell the Tube Screamer clips apart, but were pretty comfortable with separating the Timmy clips. Other way around for me, but then I have been using Tube Screamers as a core part of almost any rig I have set up for myself since around 1995 or '96.

@Lodeman, Cliff has already spilled that #2 is the pedal in every instance, so you definitely got one of them right for the DS-1. Personally I'm landing on Fractal being the last clip in every instance. I really don't love clip #3 in the 3 examples that have one, and I think that modeller is missing from the Timmy clips.

Liam
 
FractalAudio said:
One real pedal, three modelers (except for the Timmy for which the third modeler doesn't have a model).

Pedal into Band-Commander model set clean.

Tube Screamer:
https://www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/ts_808.mp3

Super OD:
https://www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/sd_1.mp3

DS-1:
https://www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/ds_1.mp3

Timmy:
https://www.fractalaudio.com/tmp/timmy.mp3
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I liked the sound of the second recordings of all of them except the Timmy one. On the Timmy I liked the 3rd one best.
 
Not a big deal, but always felt the precision drive in the axe3 is way off tonally. I try to A B it with my actual precision drive, and the real pedal is just way different.
 
i agree, drive models(pedals) suck...in general, not in Axe FX....beside fuzz. (which sucks in modellers)

note: i know, i understand...with a real amp there are reasons to use one but in the box, i don’t see it.
 
RamboMadCow said:
So re-reading this...Are you (@Andy Eagle) saying that your single 12" speaker doesn't compare to a 4x12 cabinet? Or did you leave information out and you're running many Xitones and we should explore what might be causing you problems with your sound and feel?

Because if you're comparison is a single 12" speaker and frustrated it doesn't push air like 4 12" speakers, we might as well start complaining that a Cessna doesn't fly as fast as an F-18. They're basically equivalent comparisons...
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I don't miss my VH4, I kept it because the axe can't really replicate the playing experience . And yes even in to a mesa 2x12 and the axe in to 2 Xitones stereo . I'm not saying there is anything wrong with axe just the amplification of it never gives the same as amps. Recorded you can't tell the difference.
 
sprint said:
lately, if I play Mesa sims low volume for an extended period on my real cabs (2x112 Mesas and Matrix GT1000fx - cab modelling off/pwr amp modelling on) and then suddenly switch to full frfr with cab/power amp modelling on, I feel like "yup - real cabs are waay better". If i do that the other way around, I feel like "yup, fr is waay better".
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^^^ This x 1000. My hearing adjusts to what I'm listening to, way more than I wish it would.

I come up with a new preset using some particular amp I'm exploring, evolve it over a few days, really like it. Then I go back to some others I went through the same process with, and they sound funny to me, when I loved them at the time, like I enjoy the new guy now.

It almost makes me want to use one preset forever. I might still be a victim of my ear's poor sense of absolutes, but at least I wouldn't have to rub my face in how frustrating that is. I could just bask in the blissful relativistic joy of that universe, done and sorted.

But I suspect I'd eventually get restless and want to try some other amp I heard somebody totally rock, and the whole process starts all over again.

It's both insanely frustrating and insanely fun.
 
Dave Merrill said:
It almost makes me want to use one preset forever.
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Yep, it’s not such a bad place! I’ve used one for a couple of years now. Just a deluxe verb and a Cameron 2B. Recently added a dizzy for a heavier sound. Otherwise I’m just forever tweaking and stressing before gigs!!
 
I smell an update coming. God knows Cliff is always striving for perfection. Always amazed at the level of detail and constant desire to make an already GREAT product even better. "If" you decide to do the Drive Models over again would it be possible to throw in the Klon and Boss Blues Driver:)
 
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