Double tracked guitar effect idea-patch setup question

[Danny Danzi]

I use his technique in every patch, and although it's a great sound, it still doesn't sound like a double tracked guitar, IMO.

Nothing sounds like a double tracked guitar in one pass but a double tracked guitar. To make it sound more like a double tracked guitar, you have to increase the HAAS inconsistency, you need two different eq curves and two different amps. We can do that with our Fractal gear. But...you're still only playing the part once from one sound source. You could also increase one of the delay times a bit more. This makes it looser and more "2 guitar authentic" while attempting to compensate for human timing inconsistency. However, being too loose isn't quite the solution to a double tracked guitar either. You definitely don't hear guys playing the same part 60ms apart. LOL!

When two dudes play on a record (or the same dude plays a rhythm twice independently) the human timing inconsistencies, panning, eq, amp tones and the actual differentiation of the two player's executions are what make double tracked guitars so appealing. You're also dealing with the same sound and playing one time in a single guitar attempt. Real doubled guitars are two different sounds two times making the stereo field appear more intense. The HAAS delay trick is the same as cloning a track you've recorded and sliding it a few ticks. The same tone twice being played the same exact way delayed will never top two guitars. But it's as close as we can get for now. Like I say...bring in another amp, eq it differently from the other, then use the HAAS or our Enhance and it will get you a little closer.

People don't really think about what makes up a two guitar attack...or, in a lot of today's music, how layering is done. The key ingredients to double tracking, quad tracking or complete insanity need stuff like this...

1. 2 different amps or more
2. Different eq curves
3. At least two different players so things aren't executed exactly the same
4. Panning signals appropriately as well as filling in the sonic gaps on the stereo pan field for the layering to fill out
5. Panned effects that are controlled for the guitars and the mix that aren't always hard left/right
6. Eq'd effects to allow the effects to shine and not clutter up or mask guitar frequencies or mask other instruments

We can come up with more...but as it stands now, the only thing you can't do in a live situation in one pass would be 3. So now that you take the other 5 things into consideration, if you can pull them off, you are way closer to a double tracked guitar in one pass than you are with just a HAAS delay alone or the Enhance block. The HAAS delay or Enhance block are the only way to do #3 without having another guy in the band. (quick tip...to tighten pan/wideness on the HAAS delay, decrease the wet from 100% to 80 or 70%. This closes it up shooting it more towards the center a bit so it's not so wide leaving you room to fly in effects and make THEM wide if you decide to. Or you can go the other way around. HAAS wide and effects in between to fill in gaps.) So, with the above said, you should definitely be able to get closer. It will never be exact, but you'll be surprised at what you can do when you go all out using the above. I have some recording school stuff that I teach my students using the above methods. We're lucky we have the power to do all that with our Fractal gear.

Try some of that stuff. Try two amps with two different curves in stereo, add your HAAS delay or enhance block, pan your effects (using wideness controls on the ones that have them or tighten the HAAS like I mentioned above with the wet/dry) use the eq provided in the effects even if it's just a high pass and a low pass control. You won't believe how great you can make your effects compliment your tone when you get rid of the nasty low end in a chorus or flanger...or the high end sibilance of a reverb. Adding in all these elements will get you closer, I promise. Still not the same, but closer!

Thanks for the suggestion, but I've seen his video demonstration, and as good as his haas delay is, it does not address the phasey tone glitching issue, which I suspect is the main obstacle to a realistic doubling effect...

I don't get anything phasey in my HAAS stuff. If you're getting phase, you are attempting to run a stereo sound in mono. You're delaying the sound....24-30 ms or more will phase when going to mono. Also, even true stereo guitars summed to mono will give you phasing. No matter how you slice it, anything in stereo summed to mono is going to phase unless you play so tight, there is no delay. The delay in the playing (stops, starts and other timing inconsistencies) is like a delay being put on the sound. Try it and you'll see what I mean. Run a click track and record a rhythm guitar. Pan it hard left. Create another track, play the same guitar part again and pan it right. Sound is great...pretty big, right? Sum to mono on your master bus and you'll hear the phase the same as if you used a HAAS delay as your effect in mono.

Same with chorus and pitch effects. They all work on delaying the signal, so when you use them going to mono (especially if you use too much)....they sound like ass. I barely use any chorus on my stuff other than lightly on leads once in a while or when I do the 1984 Van Halen stuff and beyond. But the more I use chorus, the more phased it sounds and my sound starts to lose impact. All our soundmen run mono PA's unless we do a huge festival. If you're not careful though, it can sound bad unless you can gauge how much to use and have a sound company that can compliment and deliver your sound correctly.

The only 3 guys I've heard pull off stereo sound convincingly to where it didn't sound weird that used pretty heavy chorus and delay stuff, were Alex Lifeson, Eddie Van Halen and Joe Bonamassa. Joe didn't go nuts with chorus, but you could hear him roar in stereo in a big way that was just right for the stuff he was playing. Alex and Eddie were just everywhere in the places I saw them. There were speakers all over the arena...above the stage, on the stage, between the floor and the stage, on the sides, from the rear...that's just pure sickness there. You pretty much can't get lost in the crowd that way....unless your soundman sucks LOL!

 

[Billbill]

There are several ways you can approximate a double-tracked sound. Each way involves separation.

1. Separation in time — use a delay;
2. Separation in space — pan left/right;
3. Separation in frequency — use pitch shift/detune;
4. Separation in tone — use different amp and cab sims, different effects...the sky is the limit.

Each of these things will help you get closer to a double-tracked sound, but there's no perfect substitute for actually recording a part twice.

As always, Thanks for laying that out Rex and giving me a clear perspective now! So switching to mono in a large environment would kill the double effect if everything you mentioned was being accomplished? Unless I was running two AxeFx one L the other R, right? I'm thinking that's why some guys run two, to help preserve the stereo image in a large environment.

 

[Rex]

As always, Thanks for laying that out Rex and giving me a clear perspective now! So switching to mono in a large environment would kill the double effect if everything you mentioned was being accomplished?

It won't kill the doubling effect, but it'll reduce it. And because of the limits of physics, you'll never be able to exactly reproduce a doubling effect, even if you're running stereo.

 

[steadystate]

Perhaps a 20-band crossover on one of the signals, each feeding an independent semi-random LFO. I'd like to try something like that, because no other way I know of can effectively recreate a mono doubled signal.

I hope someday, someone, somewhere, creates an algorithm that modifies a signal such that it can be mixed with the original without producing the horrible and predictable comb filtering of a chorus or delay. This isn't a dig on any developer. I don't think the tech exists to split a signal, process one path, and recombine without tell-tale artifacts.

 

[stereotactic]

Nothing sounds like a double tracked guitar in one pass but a double tracked guitar. To make it sound more like a double tracked guitar, you have to increase the HAAS inconsistency, you need two different eq curves and two different amps. We can do that with our Fractal gear. But...you're still only playing the part once from one sound source. You could also increase one of the delay times a bit more. This makes it looser and more "2 guitar authentic" while attempting to compensate for human timing inconsistency. However, being too loose isn't quite the solution to a double tracked guitar either. You definitely don't hear guys playing the same part 60ms apart. LOL!

When two dudes play on a record (or the same dude plays a rhythm twice independently) the human timing inconsistencies, panning, eq, amp tones and the actual differentiation of the two player's executions are what make double tracked guitars so appealing. You're also dealing with the same sound and playing one time in a single guitar attempt. Real doubled guitars are two different sounds two times making the stereo field appear more intense. The HAAS delay trick is the same as cloning a track you've recorded and sliding it a few ticks. The same tone twice being played the same exact way delayed will never top two guitars. But it's as close as we can get for now. Like I say...bring in another amp, eq it differently from the other, then use the HAAS or our Enhance and it will get you a little closer.

People don't really think about what makes up a two guitar attack...or, in a lot of today's music, how layering is done. The key ingredients to double tracking, quad tracking or complete insanity need stuff like this...

1. 2 different amps or more
2. Different eq curves
3. At least two different players so things aren't executed exactly the same
4. Panning signals appropriately as well as filling in the sonic gaps on the stereo pan field for the layering to fill out
5. Panned effects that are controlled for the guitars and the mix that aren't always hard left/right
6. Eq'd effects to allow the effects to shine and not clutter up or mask guitar frequencies or mask other instruments

We can come up with more...but as it stands now, the only thing you can't do in a live situation in one pass would be 3. So now that you take the other 5 things into consideration, if you can pull them off, you are way closer to a double tracked guitar in one pass than you are with just a HAAS delay alone or the Enhance block. The HAAS delay or Enhance block are the only way to do #3 without having another guy in the band. (quick tip...to tighten pan/wideness on the HAAS delay, decrease the wet from 100% to 80 or 70%. This closes it up shooting it more towards the center a bit so it's not so wide leaving you room to fly in effects and make THEM wide if you decide to. Or you can go the other way around. HAAS wide and effects in between to fill in gaps.) So, with the above said, you should definitely be able to get closer. It will never be exact, but you'll be surprised at what you can do when you go all out using the above. I have some recording school stuff that I teach my students using the above methods. We're lucky we have the power to do all that with our Fractal gear.

Try some of that stuff. Try two amps with two different curves in stereo, add your HAAS delay or enhance block, pan your effects (using wideness controls on the ones that have them or tighten the HAAS like I mentioned above with the wet/dry) use the eq provided in the effects even if it's just a high pass and a low pass control. You won't believe how great you can make your effects compliment your tone when you get rid of the nasty low end in a chorus or flanger...or the high end sibilance of a reverb. Adding in all these elements will get you closer, I promise. Still not the same, but closer!




I don't get anything phasey in my HAAS stuff. If you're getting phase, you are attempting to run a stereo sound in mono. You're delaying the sound....24-30 ms or more will phase when going to mono. Also, even true stereo guitars summed to mono will give you phasing. No matter how you slice it, anything in stereo summed to mono is going to phase unless you play so tight, there is no delay. The delay in the playing (stops, starts and other timing inconsistencies) is like a delay being put on the sound. Try it and you'll see what I mean. Run a click track and record a rhythm guitar. Pan it hard left. Create another track, play the same guitar part again and pan it right. Sound is great...pretty big, right? Sum to mono on your master bus and you'll hear the phase the same as if you used a HAAS delay as your effect in mono.

Same with chorus and pitch effects. They all work on delaying the signal, so when you use them going to mono (especially if you use too much)....they sound like ass. I barely use any chorus on my stuff other than lightly on leads once in a while or when I do the 1984 Van Halen stuff and beyond. But the more I use chorus, the more phased it sounds and my sound starts to lose impact. All our soundmen run mono PA's unless we do a huge festival. If you're not careful though, it can sound bad unless you can gauge how much to use and have a sound company that can compliment and deliver your sound correctly.

The only 3 guys I've heard pull off stereo sound convincingly to where it didn't sound weird that used pretty heavy chorus and delay stuff, were Alex Lifeson, Eddie Van Halen and Joe Bonamassa. Joe didn't go nuts with chorus, but you could hear him roar in stereo in a big way that was just right for the stuff he was playing. Alex and Eddie were just everywhere in the places I saw them. There were speakers all over the arena...above the stage, on the stage, between the floor and the stage, on the sides, from the rear...that's just pure sickness there. You pretty much can't get lost in the crowd that way....unless your soundman sucks LOL!

Hi Danny, thanks for the detailed explanation. I will check your video again, though it's not always easy to tell what things are going to sound like in a room with cabinets 15-20 feet apart from the sound on a video.

For the record, my comment about the phasey aspect pertains to all my experiments with strictly stereo signal paths. I always use 2 amps upfront and have no summing at any point in my signal path. The only device which I could live so far with was the H3000SE, which had advanced user settings for splice and crossfade of the modulating delay side. It is my contention that the way any modulating delay handles the trailing end of the delay, however short, meaning the crossfade to the new delay time, is the key to reducing the comb filtering/phaseyness.

Oh course I agree that dynamics, time, pitch and possibly even eq are the main elements in approximating a doubled guitar. But I have never heard anyone else bring up the crossfade issue as it relates to modulating/changing delay times and how they are best handled to achieve a best case approximation of a doubled guitar. If anybody thinks I am wrong, please tell me so and why. If you agree and think that the subject has not been properly discussed, please pipe up!

 

[Billbill]

Wow! So much awesome info so far in this thread! So much research to learn from!!

 

[Danny Danzi]

Hi Danny, thanks for the detailed explanation. I will check your video again, though it's not always easy to tell what things are going to sound like in a room with cabinets 15-20 feet apart from the sound on a video.

For the record, my comment about the phasey aspect pertains to all my experiments with strictly stereo signal paths. I always use 2 amps upfront and have no summing at any point in my signal path. The only device which I could live so far with was the H3000SE, which had advanced user settings for splice and crossfade of the modulating delay side. It is my contention that the way any modulating delay handles the trailing end of the delay, however short, meaning the crossfade to the new delay time, is the key to reducing the comb filtering/phaseyness.

Oh course I agree that dynamics, time, pitch and possibly even eq are the main elements in approximating a doubled guitar. But I have never heard anyone else bring up the crossfade issue as it relates to modulating/changing delay times and how they are best handled to achieve a best case approximation of a doubled guitar. If anybody thinks I am wrong, please tell me so and why. If you agree and think that the subject has not been properly discussed, please pipe up!

Hi stereotactic,

Hmm, I don't think you are wrong in anything you've said, but I can't say I've experienced any of that. You're speaking from your own personal experience which is, and always will be valid. I've done all this stuff from wide set-ups to 4 cabs all set up on one side. I'm wondering if there is something to your dual amp situation? I've used two amps for stereo before, but not using the front end. I used to use the front end of one, and use the power amp section of another running the other side of my effects into the send/return for my stereo feed.

That said, I was running stereo imaging in that scenario. I've never felt a need to run two independent amps live. I guess because after a while, this whole tone thing starts to become a real thorn in the side. When we play these huge festivals, there are usually 25 other bands on the bill. I get about 15 minutes to set up my stuff. Thankfully, I'm set up in under 5 minutes, but if I had an intricate stereo rig, it could be a mess. LOL!

But seriously, I wonder if by chance something is getting lost with your other amp? The video I shared...I get the exact results live with that, even if my cabs are spread out. I tend to tilt them inwards a bit so they are not just placed there straight on. I have them set to shoot a little towards the middle so I can annoy my lead singer. LOL!

But this crossfade thing you mention....I'm not quite following you on that. A modulated delay (if I'm understanding this?) may give you a few issues because it's a chorused delay. Though the principal is the same as normal stuff, I find that anything "modulated" adds in a little something extra that can sort of skewer the sound? Like, it loses impact or something. I used to use a preset in my 2101 that did a nice job with that, but at times, there would be this weird artifact that would just make my sound lose impact. I did away with the modulated delay and cooked up a patch with independent chorus and delay, and that solved the problem for some odd reason.

I think the problem with modulation has to do with how your chorus sounds. Meaning, depth, pitch, speed in which is moves, and the most important to me....the eq curve. So many guys don't bother to eq their effects and man, it's huge once you do it. It literally can remove things out of your tone that make it lose impact.

Crossfade to new delay time: yeah, I'd like to hear a bit more about this. I don't use lots of repeats on my stuff. Two with a light 3rd repeat for the most part. One thing I have noticed that's weird for me, is how our Fractal delay sometimes behaves when you take a stereo patch and play it mono. The delay R Time ratio (for me) has to be dialed way down so that I don't get rogue delay repeats. In my stereo rig, I run this at 100% while using a dual delay. That same patch going through my mono rig, and R Time ratio has to be at 1.0. Could this be the issue you are experiencing? This is no fault of Fractal....it's just how my patch translates and what I've had to do to control it.

 

[stereotactic]

Hi Danny, thanks for the good suggestions and questions. Now that I've given up on the Mimiq, I will try your doubler and compare it to my H3000.

But to be clear, my rack setup, is true stereo, no summing anywhere in the chain, except the little that happens in the Bricasti verb. The two different amps were integral to recreating the studio doubling effect I used making records: doubling a part with a different amp, different scale guitars, different reverbs/amounts of room mics, etc.

Also to be clear, I did not add and additional detuning in my H3000 doubling program, it is a fixed delay of 6ms on one side and a randomized modulating delay on the other ranging from 0-20ms. There was enough subtle chorusing from that, and like you mention above, too much chorusing/pitch variation takes away from the attack. There is no phaseyness with this set up, only movement and width and a slight chorusing. I can't say it was an entirely realistic doubling, but it did something nice and I could live with it, unlike most of the other doubling effects I tried which were too glitchy/phasey or otherwise artificial.

The random lfo in the H3000SE had a step wave setting that would toggle between random values and rest on them for different lengths. These delays were crossfaded when changing and the modulation was more subtle and less glitchy....

 

[Ben Harvey]

I use stereo on every patch live. Generally my clean tones are pretty wet (lots of delay, sometimes chorus) and I use stereo more as an "effect" rather than to fatten the sound - stereo delays panned hard left and right, wide choruses, I even have a Srtymon Timeline in the effects loop because the reverse delay is so much better than the Axe (IMO anyway). I typically don't worry about people losing the stereo image for these types of patches as it's for more of an effect (the dry signal is pretty even left and right).
For heavy sounds my typical MO is a separate amp block into a stereo cab. I'll run different IRs left and right and use the cab block delay on one side. Higher delays (up to about 0.3 ms I think but I don't have the Axe in front of me) can sound really good in stereo but if you get stuck with a mono system you get really bad comb filtering and you won't be able to cut through. Make sure to test your patch in mono; you'll probably find that above about 0.06-0.08 ms the comb filtering starts to get excessive in mono. But if you like the sound do whatever you want

 

[Billbill]

I use stereo on every patch live. Generally my clean tones are pretty wet (lots of delay, sometimes chorus) and I use stereo more as an "effect" rather than to fatten the sound - stereo delays panned hard left and right, wide choruses, I even have a Srtymon Timeline in the effects loop because the reverse delay is so much better than the Axe (IMO anyway). I typically don't worry about people losing the stereo image for these types of patches as it's for more of an effect (the dry signal is pretty even left and right).
For heavy sounds my typical MO is a separate amp block into a stereo cab. I'll run different IRs left and right and use the cab block delay on one side. Higher delays (up to about 0.3 ms I think but I don't have the Axe in front of me) can sound really good in stereo but if you get stuck with a mono system you get really bad comb filtering and you won't be able to cut through. Make sure to test your patch in mono; you'll probably find that above about 0.06-0.08 ms the comb filtering starts to get excessive in mono. But if you like the sound do whatever you want

Yep I have some patches setup identical to what you've explained here. I didn't realize comb filtering is stronger in mono. How do I set the patch to mono to test this?

 

[Ben Harvey]

You can go into the I/O menu and for output 1 (or 2 if you use that) select either:
Stereo - self explanatory and what you hopefully can use most of the time
Sum L+R - mono that combines the left and right signals. This will essentially pan everything to centre so it's good if you have different sounds in the left and right speakers in stereo mode (e.g. wide stereo delays, choruses, etc.). This is what I use to check the mono signal as it accentuates the comb filtering when using the delay parameter in the cab block (in stereo mode_
Copy L>R - this just sends the left channel to both signals. If you don't use other stereo effects like delay etc. this is probably fine (but test it out). You won't get any comb filtering from the cab block with this setting as it mutes the right channel.

Otherwise depending on how you monitor you may have a mono switch on your mixer (or could pan left and right channels to centre) for a similar effect.
There's a bit more explanation in the manual under the I/O section (section 9)

 

[Billbill]

You can go into the I/O menu and for output 1 (or 2 if you use that) select either:
Stereo - self explanatory and what you hopefully can use most of the time
Sum L+R - mono that combines the left and right signals. This will essentially pan everything to centre so it's good if you have different sounds in the left and right speakers in stereo mode (e.g. wide stereo delays, choruses, etc.). This is what I use to check the mono signal as it accentuates the comb filtering when using the delay parameter in the cab block (in stereo mode_
Copy L>R - this just sends the left channel to both signals. If you don't use other stereo effects like delay etc. this is probably fine (but test it out). You won't get any comb filtering from the cab block with this setting as it mutes the right channel.

Otherwise depending on how you monitor you may have a mono switch on your mixer (or could pan left and right channels to centre) for a similar effect.
There's a bit more explanation in the manual under the I/O section (section 9)

Great info thanks!!!