Does Tone Matching Work Better for High Gain Amps?.....

Just curious.

When I look at the List of Amps that Come are included with the AXE FX II, most seem to be higher gain models. Same seems to be true when look at the AXE Present Exchange. Most cleans seem to be Fender based (which is a great start), but I can't seem to find any Carr Ramblers/DR Z Maz Jrs/Victoria/etc.

Is Tone Matching better suited for high gain amps, or isn't there just enough interest in the "Alternative Clean Amps"?

Hopefully the Carr/DrZ/TopHat/Victoria Profiles I have on my Kemper will Tone Match pretty reliably.

Down to 1 Day for delivery of my Axe FX! If anyone had told me a year ago that I would be spending $4K on 2 Modeling Amps I would tell them they were crazy. But the AXE FX & KPA are just amazing from a technology and tone standpoint. Need to make a note to myself to get home before my wife tomorrow so she doesn't see yet another piece of gear coming into the house!
 
Just curious.

Is Tone Matching better suited for high gain amps, or isn't there just enough interest in the "Alternative Clean Amps"?

Hopefully the Carr/DrZ/TopHat/Victoria Profiles I have on my Kemper will Tone Match pretty reliably.

Hey there Stan!

I think you might be asking two questions in one here. The ToneMatch Block is more similar to the Cab Block and not the amp models, they of course depend on each other. Unlike the Kemper the Axe FX is not a profiler, meaning that you have the amp models that Cliff has modeled after the original (and some of his own creations), by now I've lost count of how many amps are in this little black box.

Think of the ToneMatch Block as a kind of Match EQ. :)

And to answer your question if it works better with high gain amps is that it all depends on the source you're matching from. I've managed to get some great TM's from clean amps. What I've noticed with Tone Matching is that the closer you get your preset to sound just by dialing it in by ear (without the TM block) the better the Tone Match.
 
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Simple answer: Yes!

Detailed answer: If you have the same feed going to the real amp you're matching and you are also capturing the raw amp sound into the Axe-Fx tone match block then everything should be easy to match. (simultaneous capture) However it doesn't usually work that way. More gain excites more frequencies which leads to using the whole spectrum of the IR. So... basically if you're trying to match a pre-recorded tone, it's always harder to match if it's too clean.
 
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Think of the ToneMatch Block as a kind of Match EQ.

Good Analogy with the Term "Match EQ"!

More gain excites more frequencies which leads to using the whole spectrum of the IR. So... basically if you're trying to match a pre-recorded tone, it's always harder to match if it's too clean.

Understood that more gain means more harmonics & more frequencies in the frequency signature. I would think that clean tones consisting of fewer Frequencies would be easier, not harder to tone match?

I love talking/thinking "geek-speak"! That's why this new generation of AXE & Kemper amps are so fascinating to me!
 
Good Analogy with the Term "Match EQ"!

Tone match = match EQ. They just changed the name I think. Kind of like "modeling" got changed to "simulation"... probably to avoid prejudice among people. :) Marketing tricks and all that. Doing the match EQ process with my Ozone gets me a lot closer which is why I don't use the "tone match" block.

Understood that more gain means more harmonics & more frequencies in the frequency signature. I would think that clean tones consisting of fewer Frequencies would be easier, not harder to tone match?

I love talking/thinking "geek-speak"! That's why this new generation of AXE & Kemper amps are so fascinating to me!

Well the thing is that people don't hear the harmonics that easily and gain level is extremely hard to set accurately. Even compression adds harmonics. So the reason why high gain makes it easier because it "makes sure" that as many frequencies are being used as possible. If you match clean playing you easily get weird sounds. Too bright/dark depending on how hard you strummed your guitar and extremely deep EQ dips here and there because your guitar is most likely not tuned and intonated exactly like the tone you're trying to match. :) Extremely geeky... but learning the hard way is the reason. :D
 
First of all "profiling" is 99% EQ matching which is the same thing as Tone Matching. Secondly if an amp is clean then there is no nonlinear component and all that matters is the EQ. In this case profiling is exactly the same as EQ matching.

There is a Dr. Z model (Maz 38).

Victorias are Fender clones so there is no need for specific Victoria models. Carrs are interesting amps. I hope to have some models in the future.

If you have some favorite profiles I would be more than happy to do Tone Matches of them and post the presets. Strangely we've had several people proclaim that Tone Matching is "a studio trick and in no way the same as profiling". When I've offered to do Tone Matches of their profiles they disappear never to be heard from again.
 
There is a Dr. Z model (Maz 38

I've been on a low watt search over the last couple of years, I was thinking more like the Maz 8 Jr...Which by the way I have, drive down to Connecticut & I'll let you borrow it! :)

Carrs are interesting amps. I hope to have some models in the future.
Also have a Carr Rambler & a Carr Mercury (1x12). Connecticut is about a 1.5 hour drive for you! :)

If you have some favorite profiles I would be more than happy to do Tone Matches of them and post the presets.
AXE arrival is tomorrow (Thursday afternoon). I guess I HAVE to spend time with my wife since it is her birthday. Hope to convert a Carr Profile or 2 over to the Axe this weekend. If the results don't go too well I'll probably give you guys a crack at it.

Thanks fro the answers and the offer!
Stan M
 
First of all "profiling" is 99% EQ matching which is the same thing as Tone Matching. Secondly if an amp is clean then there is no nonlinear component and all that matters is the EQ. In this case profiling is exactly the same as EQ matching.

I "Profiled" a few AxeFXII presets in my Kemper and it worked great.

I "Tone Matched" a couple of Kemper profiles in my AxeFxII and it worked great.

One thing that's funny about the Kemper profiling process to me is that after it does the "sounds like a UFO landing" internally generated signal routine, you still need to play your guitar for awhile in a "refinement" step which to me is 100% equal to Tone Matching in real time with the AxeFX using only a guitar. In fact, watching the EQ curves change on the AxeFX and listening to the EQ change on the Kemper, it takes about the same time (a few seconds) before both are more or less locked in on the final tone.

BTW, Cliff. I know it a simple set of tones, but the 1987x set of profiles from TAF are awesome in a band setting. If you're up for tone matching some profiles, those are very useful.

Karma
 
I've been on a low watt search over the last couple of years, I was thinking more like the Maz 8 Jr...Which by the way I have, drive down to Connecticut & I'll let you borrow it! :)

Also have a Carr Rambler & a Carr Mercury (1x12). Connecticut is about a 1.5 hour drive for you! :)

AXE arrival is tomorrow (Thursday afternoon). I guess I HAVE to spend time with my wife since it is her birthday. Hope to convert a Carr Profile or 2 over to the Axe this weekend. If the results don't go too well I'll probably give you guys a crack at it.

Thanks fro the answers and the offer!
Stan M

Oooooo. Rambler and Mercury :D

These two, a Two Rock clean and the Suhr Kelly amp is at the highest of wishes. And actually my only wishes.

I've allways been a high gainer, but playing high end clean is pure magic.
 
First of all "profiling" is 99% EQ matching which is the same thing as Tone Matching. Secondly if an amp is clean then there is no nonlinear component and all that matters is the EQ. In this case profiling is exactly the same as EQ matching.

Maybe this is a bit off topic but I was just really curious about this...

I thought compression would be a nonlinear component of how an amp sounds? (I am not really thinkinh in terms of Tonematching or Profiling here..)

Is the only difference between an AC30 and a Fender Deluxe the EQ when they are clean? (I always had the idea that the Vox was compressing a bit more by design,
but that is how I interpret what I feel/hear...)

Jens
 
Will send you the Carr Ramber/Carr Mercury/Dr Z Maz 8 Jr *.kpr files when I get home tonight.

Please provide email.

And just got UPS Confirmation of Shipment of my AXE! Less than 24 Hours to go.
 
Maybe this is a bit off topic but I was just really curious about this...

I thought compression would be a nonlinear component of how an amp sounds? (I am not really thinkinh in terms of Tonematching or Profiling here..)

Is the only difference between an AC30 and a Fender Deluxe the EQ when they are clean? (I always had the idea that the Vox was compressing a bit more by design,
but that is how I interpret what I feel/hear...)

Jens

Compression is a difference between those amps but it is felt more than heard. There are some minor EQ changes that occur depending upon what causes the compression.

Voxes compress more when overdriven due to "cathode squish". If you overdrive the power tubes the grids conduct. This current causes the charge on the cathode capacitor(s) to increase raising the cathode voltage. This in turn lowers the effective bias which reduces the gain. This creates a type of compression. In this case the plates don't go into clipping as early and the EQ changes slightly. The Axe-Fx II models all this.

Fixed-bias amps (and cathode-biased) amps compress due to the power supply sagging. This causes the plates to clip sooner.
 
Thanks! It is always great to learn something new! :)

I had a teacher who demonstrated the power supply sag on a fender champ in hindsight that was a great lesson even if I did not think much of it at the time.

I was not really worried about it being in the AxeFx, the idea that a clean fender and a clean vox are the same except for EQ just seemed odd to me, or at least not what I have encountered in my AxeFX and listening to recordings of those amps. Until now the whole journey of learning and understanding what amps act in what ways and what I prefer for what sounds has been half the fun with the unit.

Jens
 
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First of all "profiling" is 99% EQ matching which is the same thing as Tone Matching. Secondly if an amp is clean then there is no nonlinear component and all that matters is the EQ. In this case profiling is exactly the same as EQ matching.

There is a Dr. Z model (Maz 38).

Victorias are Fender clones so there is no need for specific Victoria models. Carrs are interesting amps. I hope to have some models in the future.

If you have some favorite profiles I would be more than happy to do Tone Matches of them and post the presets. Strangely we've had several people proclaim that Tone Matching is "a studio trick and in no way the same as profiling". When I've offered to do Tone Matches of their profiles they disappear never to be heard from again.

Yeah it seems like Kemper guys somehow think that the Kemper is doing something magical when infact it's not. Ozone 5 match EQ killed the Kemper in accuracy, no contest. A well done match EQ had the low end and presence right etc. which the Kemper never got right.

I think it's a case of not wanting to understand or not being able to think about it in a logic way. EQ is not dynamic so you can + and - frequencies. Simple as that. What they are claiming is that the Kemper is a multiband compressor IR loader which is a joke. :D With that processing power? Yeah right. It does not give you the feel of the amp. It gives a very inaccurate match EQ... which they encourage you to fix by tweaking it closer by ear after the profiling. So at least they admit that the profiling is inaccurate.
 
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