1. We would like to remind our members that this is a privately owned, run and supported forum. You are here at the invitation and discretion of the owners. As such, rules and standards of conduct will be applied that help keep this forum functioning as the owners desire. These include, but are not limited to, removing content and even access to the forum.

    Please give yourself a refresher on the forum rules you agreed to follow when you signed up.
    Dismiss Notice

Does the AX8 have an audio gap?

Discussion in 'AX8 Discussion' started by FreeMind, Aug 30, 2016.

  1. FractalAudio

    FractalAudio
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Fractal Audio Systems Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2008
    Messages:
    12,675
    Likes Received:
    82,389
    I'll have engineering look into ways of reducing it. The problem is that our modeling is very detailed and whenever the amp model changes the "virtual circuit" needs to be reconfigured. We can switch quickly but often this causes clicks and pops due to the reconfiguration. So the amp block needs to run silently for a bit so things will settle. Then we unmute the block. This mute period is what you are hearing.

    Most other products just use a fixed algorithm and change the input/output EQ and gain. With this type of algorithm you can switch quickly without clicks and pops but, of course, you don't get the realism and detail.
     
  2. DLC86

    DLC86
    Expand Collapse
    Forum Addict

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,304
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Location:
    Sicilia - Italia
    Maybe a workaround could be to incorporate the channels of a specific amp in a single model (with switches to change channel) instead of having a model for every channel? In this way I think (from an ignorant perspective) for most amps it would be equivalent to changing just a few parameters and it shouldn't cause lots of sound glitches. The downside is that the issue would be improved only if you use the same amp in a song, not bad anyway.

    But maybe I'm just saying bullshit :-D
     
    vinnyburns, mmpete and Ericbr1 like this.
  3. Ericbr1

    Ericbr1
    Expand Collapse
    Inspired

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2015
    Messages:
    348
    Likes Received:
    167
    I like your post, but they sortof already allow that though, as there's certain 'advanced amp parameters' that are assignable /switchable via switches/expression pedals. Also gain and input trim,etc are controllable. . I assign mine to gain,etc. . BUT the real issues are switching a Matchless or Top Boost lo-gain/clean to a Splawn hi-gain, or a Fender Commander clean to an Herbie hi-gain,etc. .If you want to switch within the same amp they've built ways for us to do it pretty convincingly already! :) I understand FAS's post above and it makes 100% sense to me, but I still bet they can make it more seamless :) Eric
     
    skyhighrocks likes this.
  4. skyhighrocks

    skyhighrocks
    Expand Collapse
    Inspired

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2016
    Messages:
    337
    Likes Received:
    275

    I agree...using one amp is pretty good but there are times, many times, when 1 amp doesn't do the job. Even using a high gain amp and reducing it's gain via parameters doesn't always work because it's the high gain channel of said amp...it won't sound good when reducing gain, which is why there's sometimes a clean channel to that amp.
     
    mmpete likes this.
  5. DLC86

    DLC86
    Expand Collapse
    Forum Addict

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,304
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Location:
    Sicilia - Italia
    Well changing amp parameters is not the same of switching channel, you're not gonna get a high gain channel by just turning some knobs on a clean channel, most aspects of the amp algo are hard-coded or are parameters accessible only to the engineers. For example when you switch to a crunch or high gain channel on a real amp, in most cases you're actually adding a preamp tube with the relative circuitry to the amp schematic, there's no way to do that with advanced parameters on the afx
     
  6. DLC86

    DLC86
    Expand Collapse
    Forum Addict

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2014
    Messages:
    1,304
    Likes Received:
    1,121
    Location:
    Sicilia - Italia
    Sure, I was suggesting that as a compromise to get better results AT LEAST when using different channels of the same amp
     
    Ericbr1 and skyhighrocks like this.
  7. #27 bishop5150, Aug 30, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2016
    bishop5150

    bishop5150
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,441
    Likes Received:
    4,086
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    This is my only pet peeve with the unit. At first I just worked on my timing switching between clean and high gain to find just the right spot where it was least noticeable. But I mainly use high gain most of the time in the band anyway so I went with the scene controller work around and just use them on my input gain and master volume to get my clean tone. I put in an extra GEQ block to shape the tone a little on those scenes and haven't looked back. It works great. But a fix for this issue is definitely my one and only wish list item.
     
  8. Sixstring

    Sixstring
    Expand Collapse
    Axe-Master

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    9,248
    Likes Received:
    2,875
    Location:
    SoCal!
    Get a second Ax8 problem solved! a costly and somewhat cumbersome fix sure but hey it should work. I know that some of the pro players have done this with the Axe FX units.
     
    mmpete, cragginshred and bishop5150 like this.
  9. bishop5150

    bishop5150
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2013
    Messages:
    2,441
    Likes Received:
    4,086
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I like the way you think. :D
     
  10. Sixstring

    Sixstring
    Expand Collapse
    Axe-Master

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    9,248
    Likes Received:
    2,875
    Location:
    SoCal!
    Well as much as I hate to admit it I think you are the minority :(.
     
    maddnotez, fourtet, Hayabusa and 4 others like this.
  11. ibanezfreak4

    ibanezfreak4
    Expand Collapse
    Forum Addict

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2014
    Messages:
    1,243
    Likes Received:
    946
    Location:
    Michigan, USA
    My 2 cents is yes, this is simply unrealistic in a single preset. Tell me which song or session you would need to plan out that many scene changes without having a brief moment to hit the Preset selector and your next preset? I truly understand the challenge and agree that the scene transitions could improve, but for what it does it's pretty phenomenal. An example of this was my AX8 emulating the entire "Simple Man" tune from the intro, post-chorus, chorus and solo parts using 4 scenes. Timing was everything so if you watch closely to the vid on this thread, you have to time it just right: http://forum.fractalaudio.com/threads/simple-man-preset-video.118109/#post-1408031

    The AFX II Mark I and MFC-101 Mark II for me has been a similar experience, timing and understanding how many parameters change. I wouldn't call it "worse", it just depends on how much you are enabling/disabling/XY switching.
     
    JayCM800XL likes this.
  12. st3sch

    st3sch
    Expand Collapse
    New here

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2015
    Messages:
    30
    Likes Received:
    16
    Hehe a few days ago I thought of using my Standard in th FX loop for cleans. Not really the reason for buying the AX8 was a smaller setup. But wait I could do trippel amping ... :D
     
    bishop5150 likes this.
  13. dpeterson

    dpeterson
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2008
    Messages:
    4,647
    Likes Received:
    2,775
    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    or some kind of mixer blend into the other model.. might mask it? thinking out loud.
     
  14. chris

    chris
    Expand Collapse
    Legend!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2008
    Messages:
    24,689
    Likes Received:
    15,805
    That would require both sounds to completely be active during the "mix," I would think.
     
  15. barhrecords

    barhrecords
    Expand Collapse
    Axe-Master

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2010
    Messages:
    8,968
    Likes Received:
    5,888
    Location:
    34.673, -86.745
    Actually some devices do audio sampling with short loops to implement faux spillover. So many unknowns to the design of this device that us armchair EE's should stick to the couch :)
     
  16. Smittefar

    Smittefar
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,727
    Likes Received:
    3,507
    Location:
    Denmark
    I really don't see the big problem - I get that if you really want to use a Silverface twin for your cleans and then a JCM800 for drive, and MESA MarkIV for leads, then it cannot be done without an audio gap, and workarounds will be neigh impossible. But then again, such a setup could not be made gapless on the AxeFX XL+ either. I am a simple man, so I prefer to keep my tones fairly consistent. If I go for Marshall drives, I will also choose a Marshall style clean. Such two sounds can be combined gaplessly without problems.

    I make a preset per song, and within each song, I have to make choices. Does it need to be gapless? Will using the same amp for all tones be a compromise? Can I live with such a compromise. I have yet to come across a song, where it needed to be gapless, and I could not live with the tonal compromise. Also, back in my tube amp days, I would never have considered bringing two amps to a show. I have had three channel amps (Marshall TSL100 and Koch Studiotone), but in both cases, those channels were not all that different.

    Again, with just a single amp model, it is possible to do a vast amount of tones without running out of CPU. I get that some people need to change amps, and it needs to happen quickly. They are a bit out of luck with the Ax8.

    I have found that changing the footswitch action to happen on the downstroke rather than the upstroke, really diminishes the amount of delay, I actually notice. When I had the action happen on the upstroke, I always felt like my changes came late. But since I changed to downstroke, I hit the changes, I need. Again, I measured the audio gap to be 1/10 of a second - That is less than a 1/16 note at 120 BPM.
     
  17. #37 FreeMind, Aug 30, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2016
    FreeMind

    FreeMind
    Expand Collapse
    Forum Addict

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,060
    Likes Received:
    630
    I am really looking forward for a fix.
    Even if it's only for the same amp head channels fix, that is better than nothing.
    I think there might be other ways to look at the issue... For example, by masking the gap with a generated signal, or a repeated buffer, or reversed audio or something like that instead ...
     
    bishop5150 likes this.
  18. atquinn

    atquinn
    Expand Collapse
    Forum Addict

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,310
    Likes Received:
    804
    Not true.
    -
    Austin
     
  19. Smittefar

    Smittefar
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,727
    Likes Received:
    3,507
    Location:
    Denmark
    That is true. Since there are three amps, you would need to use amp block x/y in one of the two amp blocks. The audio gap is smaller on the XL, but it is there.
     
  20. Smittefar

    Smittefar
    Expand Collapse
    Fractal Fanatic

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2015
    Messages:
    3,727
    Likes Received:
    3,507
    Location:
    Denmark
    Regarding masking the drop out, you can always use reverb. But an automatic generated masking sound might cause more problems than it solves. I'd rather be silent than in the wrong key.
     

Share This Page