Do They *Really* Sound The Same? Re-Amped Version!

So the Fm3 has the most bass of the 3, Axe Fx III the least and the FM9 it's in between. I've guessed right suspecting some of that. Now the question is: why?
 
IMHO, this is probably less of an FM3 to an FM9 to an Axe-FX III comparison, and more of a firmware version comparison. Anyway, if you can get matching firmware versions running on all three, a phase inversion cancellation would answer the question about whether all three are the same or not.
 
Akeron said:
So the Fm3 has the most bass of the 3, Axe Fx III the least and the FM9 it's in between. I've guessed right suspecting some of that. Now the question is: why?
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So, are you saying FM3, FM9, and III in order of A, B, C?

I'm pretty sure the 9 is B and was debating the A & C. Can't say that any sound like a transistor amp though! They all sound great.
 
fcs101 said:
So, are you saying FM3, FM9, and III in order of A, B, C?

I'm pretty sure the 9 is B and was debating the A & C. Can't say that any sound like a transistor amp though! They all sound great.
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It's a spoiler :) A is the Fm3, B is the Axe III and C is the FM9, as said at the end of the video. It matches my guesses before watching that, based on my idea of the amount of bass differencese I had
 
Akeron said:
It's a spoiler :) A is the Fm3, B is the Axe III and C is the FM9, as said at the end of the video. It matches my guesses before watching that, based on my idea of the amount of bass differencese I had
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Ha! I quit before the end because the manner he was talking seemed like he was going to make us wait. Personally I thought A sounded the best (can I say "beefiest"?).
 
Can you be certain that the presets copy equally across the platforms?

Just call up the same amp with default settings with the same IR at standard setting and do the reamp that way.
No delays etc.
As @GlennO says you could do a null test to see if any differences.
 
Just bought an FM3 at a great price as a portable throw down alternative to my Axe III Turbo, I ported over a few presets, didn't notice more bass. But, strangely the FM3 feels a little better under the fingers to me. Not sure if it has to do with the input impedance and input block being different. It may all be in my head, but it sounds just as good and my presets work on it. Only noticeable difference, is when it's reading and starting up, it is noticeably slower, but not a big deal.


I am really glad I bought the FM3, for the price, it's a really good unit.
 
Greetings Doug B,
This is the second video you have posted where you have stated that the same named preset on the three units are different.
However, you do not go any further into this. Are you saying that the elements within the 3 units presets are different?
If this is so, then proceeding with a guessing game based upon the notion that the UNITS sound different is patently misleading.
If that is so, then the difference is in the presets, NOT the units sound production.

Could you please clarify what you mean by "they are different".

My question is based on genuine curiosity as I don't have the means to own all three units and this clarification would be enlightening given the very clear reputation that the units all do sound the same given ALL EQUAL circumstances.
 
podling9 said:
Greetings Doug B,
This is the second video you have posted where you have stated that the same named preset on the three units are different.
However, you do not go any further into this. Are you saying that the elements within the 3 units presets are different?
If this is so, then proceeding with a guessing game based upon the notion that the UNITS sound different is patently misleading.
If that is so, then the difference is in the presets, NOT the units sound production.

Could you please clarify what you mean by "they are different".

My question is based on genuine curiosity as I don't have the means to own all three units and this clarification would be enlightening given the very clear reputation that the units all do sound the same given ALL EQUAL circumstances.
Click to expand...
Yes, there are some differences in some parameters in that particular preset between the 3 units. The differences weren't important enough to list them all. Once I realized that there were differences, rather than going thru each parameter in every block in all 3 units, I simply copied the Axe-Fx III preset to the FM9 and the FM3 so that all 3 units would be using the exact same preset.

I don't know why there are some minute differences in the same-named preset on the different units, since the Axe-Fx III preset works just fine in the FM9 and FM3. I'm sure that the Fractal devs have their reasons, which I am not privy to. I just wanted to make sure that all 3 units were equal in that respect.

The only way that I could hear any differences was when I went from normal playing conditions (switching from one unit to the other) to a far more technical setting which went beyond the scope that I had intended.

This test was the result of a post in this forum that you might have seen; a guy said that he had 2 Axe-Fx IIIs using FRFRs, and he bought an FM3 using smaller FRFRs. He thought the FM3 sounded like a transistor amp, where he felt that the Axe-Fx III sounded like a tube amp. Most guys responded saying that he should play them thru the same FRFRs to see if he could hear any difference.

I do have all 3 units, running into the same mixer with the same settings, going out thru the same pair of speakers. When I'm playing and just switching between units, I hear NO differences. I have a floor switcher so I can switch quickly. That's all this test was intended to show - if you switch from unit to unit playing the exact same preset, you won't hear any differences. And you certainly won't hear any differences in a band situation. A bit-by-bit comparison tho? Sure, you might find something different there. But if you really have to dig that deep, I'm guessing that you're more of a lab tech than a musician.

Hope this helps, and thanks for asking!
 
Greetings Doug B,

Thank you very much for your reply and your effort in doing so.

I apologize for pressing, but it's with the hope of learning from you as you have the gear and experience to clarify this notion as fact or fiction (for the gentleman who raised this in the first instance, and for those who believe they can perceive a difference).

Without going into minute detail, do the differences in presets include parameters that are available in exactly the same way on all 3 units?
Because if this is the case, then your technique of copying the A3 preset to the other units is definitive. Perhaps the last test (if you have the time or inclination) would be to copy the FM3 preset to the other two units and see if the result is the same.

The reason I am pressing is that if there is, in fact, no discernible difference in both circumstances then those who played the guessing game can be assured that their perceptions were deceived in some other way (e.g. the sound source on which they listened to your clips, confirmation bias etc..) and the reputation of the Fractal systems equality of sound across the 3 devices remains intact and that those who did play the game were no more than either lucky or not with their guesses.

I also wonder if Fractal might contribute briefly and definitively to this curious question as I would expect that this has been considered and tested quite thoroughly by them.
 
podling9 said:
Greetings Doug B,

Thank you very much for your reply and your effort in doing so.

I apologize for pressing, but it's with the hope of learning from you as you have the gear and experience to clarify this notion as fact or fiction (for the gentleman who raised this in the first instance, and for those who believe they can perceive a difference).

Without going into minute detail, do the differences in presets include parameters that are available in exactly the same way on all 3 units?
Because if this is the case, then your technique of copying the A3 preset to the other units is definitive. Perhaps the last test (if you have the time or inclination) would be to copy the FM3 preset to the other two units and see if the result is the same.

The reason I am pressing is that if there is, in fact, no discernible difference in both circumstances then those who played the guessing game can be assured that their perceptions were deceived in some other way (e.g. the sound source on which they listened to your clips, confirmation bias etc..) and the reputation of the Fractal systems equality of sound across the 3 devices remains intact and that those who did play the game were no more than either lucky or not with their guesses.

I also wonder if Fractal might contribute briefly and definitively to this curious question as I would expect that this has been considered and tested quite thoroughly by them.
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Yes, all of the parameters are available in exactly the same way - but the FM3 doesn't have as many blocks as the FM9, which doesn't have as many blocks as the Axe-Fx III. You can go to Fractal's website to see the differences between them. As long as a preset doesn't exceed their capabilities, a preset from the Axe-Fx III loads exactly the same way in the FM9 and FM3. And you can swap an FC controller between units and it works exactly the same.

I will admit tho to being a little startled the first time I fired up my FM3, because to my ears it sounded exactly like the Axe-Fx III. I don't know exactly what I was expecting, but this was a real "HOLY S***!" moment for me.
 
GlennO said:
IMHO, this is probably less of an FM3 to an FM9 to an Axe-FX III comparison, and more of a firmware version comparison. Anyway, if you can get matching firmware versions running on all three, a phase inversion cancellation would answer the question about whether all three are the same or not.
Click to expand...
This.
Phase inversion will speak the truth
 
DougB415 said:
I simply copied the Axe-Fx III preset to the FM9 and the FM3 so that all 3 units would be using the exact same preset.
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While at first it seems like moving a preset from FX3 -> FM9 -> FM3 would work, the FX3 has parameters available in blocks that are not available on the other two units, which can introduce variation in the sound. They'll be as close as they can be but those odd little parameters could make a difference.

Reverse the direction of the preset flow to FM3 -> FM9 -> FX3 and the bigger units will honor the settings in the FM3-oriented preset.

The other thing that has to be accounted for, is the difference in firmware versions. When they have the same models and parameters, i.e., when the FM9 and FM3 have implemented the FX3 features, except for those things that can't be ported, then the units should generate the same sound given the same input and using the same parameters. In the past I've used a spreadsheet as an example. Give a spreadsheet on your phone the same input data, apply the same functions, and the results will match the same spreadsheet running on a desktop. If they don't then there are problems with the code and nobody can be expected to trust or use the product.
 
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Greg Ferguson said:
While at first it seems like moving a preset from FX3 -> FM9 -> FM3 would work, the FX3 has parameters available in blocks that are not available on the other two units, which can introduce variation in the sound. They'll be as close as they can be but those odd little parameters could make a difference.

Reverse the direction of the preset flow to FM3 -> FM9 -> FX3 and the bigger units will honor the settings in the FM3-oriented preset.
Click to expand...
Noted, thanks!
 
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