dizzy ch3- what the heck happened to it?

I think part of the issue is people think the VH4 is a metal amp which it most definitely is not. It's a mid-gain amp. If you try to use it for detuned death-metal it won't sound good because that's not its intended usage.

Stefan Ivan Schäfer from the Jazz Pistols uses one. Definitely not metal. *LOL* I reduced the Input Gain to 6, backed off the Presence to about 2, and substituted a nice EV Cab (Factory 8, my favorite IR of all time) for those 2 4x12 monsters in the preset. Result: instant creamy goodness.
 
The sat switch does work now.

? Im confused the last I heard was quoted above :Cliff, 5/2014: Don't turn on the saturation. Those amps don't have saturation circuits. Putting one in there can make things sound weird. Axe-Fx II Firmware 15.00 Public Beta
 
? Im confused the last I heard was quoted above :Cliff, 5/2014: Don't turn on the saturation. Those amps don't have saturation circuits. Putting one in there can make things sound weird. Axe-Fx II Firmware 15.00 Public Beta

He redid the saturation since then I believe (I don't remember if it was before or after the public beta), I just tried it and it seemed to work fine.
 
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i bet something like that would require heavy changes to how things are coded and recalled. it may also confuse users, as they can't find an amp model on the amp select page, they now have to find the desired channel on some other page. huge paradigm shift i think.

perhaps there isn't an issue with having 6 amp "slots" used versus only 2?

If you buy the real amp, its one amp and switches for the channels so finding your amp seems irrelevant because Dizzy is the amp, you found it.

Think about the potential of scenes if it were setup this way. Only the channel you have selected is using CPU, and in the next scene you could call another channel of that amp. Currently you need both amp blocks to utilize all of them in x/y setup within a scene/song however if it was one block only, you could expand potential of accessing all three channels on Dizzy and a second amp block which could also have multiple channels.

2 amp blocks x/y = 4 amps usable in a scene
or
2 amp blocks x/y each amp has 4 channels assuming all used have max = still 4 amps but access to all channels in all give a combination of 16 usable in a scene.

Tooltip the channel buttons in Axe Edit if a title of each is needed, however if the amp has 4 channels, should be easy to know the sequence like you would on the real amp 1,2,3,4 or A,B,C,D. In the case of Recto, tool tip Red, Orange etc and just match up channel numbers or order based on the real amp numbers 1,2,3 for Triple Recto. Wiki can also be a reference and once you know your amp and channels I don't think its going to make a difference because you end up memorizing it.
 
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If you buy the real amp, its one amp and switches for the channels so finding your amp seems irrelevant because Dizzy is the amp, you found it.

Think about the potential of scenes if it were setup this way. Only the channel you have selected is using CPU, and in the next scene you could call another channel of that amp. Currently you need both amp blocks to utilize all of them in x/y setup within a scene/song however if it was one block only, you could expand potential of accessing all three channels on Dizzy and a second amp block which could also have multiple channels.

2 amp blocks x/y = 4 amps usable in a scene
or
2 amp blocks x/y each amp has 4 channels assuming all used have max = still 4 amps but access to all channels in all give a combination of 16 usable in a scene.

Tooltip the channel buttons in Axe Edit if a title of each is needed, however if the amp has 4 channels, should be easy to know the sequence like you would on the real amp 1,2,3,4 or A,B,C,D. In the case of Recto, tool tip Red, Orange etc and just match up channel numbers or order based on the real amp numbers 1,2,3 for Triple Recto. Wiki can also be a reference and once you know your amp and channels I don't think its going to make a difference because you end up memorizing it.

I'm certain that the reason channel a, b, c and d shows up as different amp models is because their circuits are different. So when on the real amp you switch channels what you do is that you route the electricity through a different electronic signal path (different gain stages, ...). In the Axe Fx, the amp block covers one complete electronic signal path so when an amp has more channels there is a need to create another amp model because the circuits will be different in each channel. When you add an amp block in the Axe Fx, you load it's circuit into the Axe Fx memory and each circuit covers the complete signal path in the amp. So 4 channels is 4 circuits/signal paths and it would require 4 amp blocks. On a real amp they can save components by using relays (they are the ones with the clicking sound when you change channels on some amps) so you don't have to use 4 x 4 EL34's on a 4 channel 100W amp, but in the Axe Fx, it would likely use as much memory creating an internal switching structure within an amp block like that than to just add another complete amp block and what you're asking for is actually just to add more amp blocks. Creating another virtual layer doesn't change the fact that there would need to be a separate amp block for each channel. Also, you haven't addressed the problem where some amps like the Diezel have separate controls for each channel so it's easy to run channel 1 with the treble dimed and channel 4 with the treble completely rolled off. And on other amps most controls are shared.

Also, in the real world, people accept the amps limitation because for most people carrying another amp just isn't practical. But in our wonderful Axe Fx world, if I like the Diezel vh4 channel 2 and 3 but not 1 and 4, I can just as easily add say a Shiva clean and a Friedman HBE to create my virtual 4 channel dream amp (preset). But if the amp block of a 4 channel amp would load 4 amp blocks in the Axe Fx, that would eat 4 amp blocks worth of resources and would prevent me adding much else to that preset.

Now, I'm all for increased useability (I've posted plenty of times about the virtues of adding an originals page which would only display the controls of the original amp or effect) and channels on an amp would seemingly fall into that category, and maybe it should. The way I would see that would be to on the amp block to add exactly as stated, only having say the Diezel Vh4 as a selectable amp model and on the originals page you could select 1, 2, 3 or 4/A, B, C, D,..., just like in the quoted post. But I don't believe that this would ever be switchable by scenes as this would effectively just load a complete new amp block for each of the 4 channels. And to me this would only make sense if (when :) ) an "originals" page has been added to the Axe Fx.
 
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Only the channel you have selected is using CPU, and in the next scene you could call another channel of that amp.
as you know, you can do this currently with 2 channels - use the X/Y function. to make it work for a 4 channel amp, currently you need both amp blocks. what would work better for what you want to do is create W X Y & Z switching - still only 1 out of 4 options is loaded at a particular time.

but this still doesn't make it necessary to not have them listed in the amp list and instead be hidden in some sort of "channel" function in the amp block. also, then they'd have to code each amp differently as some have multiple channels and others don't. the channel select knob would have to appear differently in each block.

you can STILL use presets to call up different settings and amp types.

having amp types as channels within an amp vs. individually listed does not save CPU. it's the same change in sound, it's the same "data" the axe has to change to.

however if the amp has 4 channels, should be easy to know the sequence like you would on the real amp 1,2,3,4 or A,B,C,D ... you end up memorizing it.
this is really tough from a general usability standpoint. some will actually really have a tough time translating channels 1 2 3 4 to A B C D... you'd be surprised. they'll look for channel 3 on an amp and only see letters and not know what to do.

and then instead of having it listed, you force the user to memorize where things are without any sort of reference? that probably will not work out for many.
 
So the Silver Face models will match up to the FW14 Dizzy's?? That is interesting. Will look forward to a/bing them, coz I started that thread originally due to differences I was hearing. But it's not like I can say the FW15 ones are bad... just subtlety different.
 
Ok so from what I understand the only difference between the Blueface and Silverface is that the Silverface has more gain on tap and the Blueface is less compressed? Is this correct?
 
Jazz Pistols are awesome !!

been a while since I last heard them, thanks for reminding me
:)


Awesome news Cliff, thanks for listening to the forum community

:encouragement:
 
I'm certain that the reason channel a, b, c and d shows up as different amp models is because their circuits are different. So when on the real amp you switch channels what you do is that you route the electricity through a different electronic signal path (different gain stages, ...). In the Axe Fx, the amp block covers one complete electronic signal path so when an amp has more channels there is a need to create another amp model because the circuits will be different in each channel. When you add an amp block in the Axe Fx, you load it's circuit into the Axe Fx memory and each circuit covers the complete signal path in the amp. So 4 channels is 4 circuits/signal paths and it would require 4 amp blocks. On a real amp they can save components by using relays (they are the ones with the clicking sound when you change channels on some amps) so you don't have to use 4 x 4 EL34's on a 4 channel 100W amp, but in the Axe Fx, it would likely use as much memory creating an internal switching structure within an amp block like that than to just add another complete amp block and what you're asking for is actually just to add more amp blocks. Creating another virtual layer doesn't change the fact that there would need to be a separate amp block for each channel. Also, you haven't addressed the problem where some amps like the Diezel have separate controls for each channel so it's easy to run channel 1 with the treble dimed and channel 4 with the treble completely rolled off. And on other amps most controls are shared.

Also, in the real world, people accept the amps limitation because for most people carrying another amp just isn't practical. But in our wonderful Axe Fx world, if I like the Diezel vh4 channel 2 and 3 but not 1 and 4, I can just as easily add say a Shiva clean and a Friedman HBE to create my virtual 4 channel dream amp (preset). But if the amp block of a 4 channel amp would load 4 amp blocks in the Axe Fx, that would eat 4 amp blocks worth of resources and would prevent me adding much else to that preset.

Now, I'm all for increased useability (I've posted plenty of times about the virtues of adding an originals page which would only display the controls of the original amp or effect) and channels on an amp would seemingly fall into that category, and maybe it should. The way I would see that would be to on the amp block to add exactly as stated, only having say the Diezel Vh4 as a selectable amp model and on the originals page you could select 1, 2, 3 or 4/A, B, C, D,..., just like in the quoted post. But I don't believe that this would ever be switchable by scenes as this would effectively just load a complete new amp block for each of the 4 channels. And to me this would only make sense if (when :) ) an "originals" page has been added to the Axe Fx.

This. Maybe not drastic differences in structure, but DEFINITELY gain stage differences.
And I'm not looking to take on the champ, but my silver face with =C= EL34's would shred & chug with the best of them. Might've been the most metal amp I've ever heard... unless you mean like G'n'R kinda' metal. Then maybe not so much... way too compressed for that I think.
On a side note, does anyone actually use the VH4's 2nd channel? It's decent AC/DC territory, but if we're being asked to limit the VH4 options (which is not what I gathered from Cliff's posts, but I think others are saying), that's the ch to go. 3rd & 4th is where the VH4 earns its keep. Cleans ain't half bad either.

In any case, +1 to having the blue & silver side by side!

ptgold, that's my observations having heard both & owned a silver. Never got under the hood of a blue, but just cracking open the silver's chassis was enough to make me wish I had never looked inside. MAJOR props to Cliff for taking on a trace job on that SOB!
 
On a side note, does anyone actually use the VH4's 2nd channel? It's decent AC/DC territory, but if we're being asked to limit the VH4 options (which is not what I gathered from Cliff's posts, but I think others are saying), that's the ch to go. 3rd & 4th is where the VH4 earns its keep. Cleans ain't half bad either.
I actually really like the "lower gain" channels on Diezels and that's where Mr. Diezel comes from originally, modding Marshalls. for some reason they got this reputation for being high gain amps (which they do great), but the lower side of things should not be overlooked.
 
This. Maybe not drastic differences in structure, but DEFINITELY gain stage differences.
And I'm not looking to take on the champ, but my silver face with =C= EL34's would shred & chug with the best of them. Might've been the most metal amp I've ever heard... unless you mean like G'n'R kinda' metal. Then maybe not so much... way too compressed for that I think.
On a side note, does anyone actually use the VH4's 2nd channel? It's decent AC/DC territory, but if we're being asked to limit the VH4 options (which is not what I gathered from Cliff's posts, but I think others are saying), that's the ch to go. 3rd & 4th is where the VH4 earns its keep. Cleans ain't half bad either.


In any case, +1 to having the blue & silver side by side!

ptgold, that's my observations having heard both & owned a silver. Never got under the hood of a blue, but just cracking open the silver's chassis was enough to make me wish I had never looked inside. MAJOR props to Cliff for taking on a trace job on that SOB!


I agree that Ch3 and 4 is what made the VH4 famous...although CH4 has always had way too much gain for me to find it useable. I don't really find much use at all for VH4 Ch2 in the AXE2, as there are MUCH better crunch channels available. I prefer the crunch channels to be as open as possible and Ch2 is too compressed FOR ME to enjoy it as that.
 
I should've cleared this up better...
Pt, I meant my observations regarding compression and gain on tap, blue vs silver, matched yours.

On the real deal, my silver ch4 gain stayed around noon/1oclock. Way too much on tap to still sit well from compression, but it still stayed tight and articulate.
 
I played the "blueface" VH4 stereo from 1998 till 2003 in different Band and on many stages. My first Diezel was a Marshall 800 hotroded to an 3-Channel-amp - the "König Ludwig" (King Ludwig - Bavaria) - Amp.

So in FW 15 something got lost there between Mids and Bass. It has got aggressive Highs, but the compression in the down mids is missing. Cliff said, crank up the gain and Master, but it´s not the same..........

The modern Silverface-Version has changed the basic sound from the 90´s- my blueface was always punchy, but there was no "sharpness/Edge" like in the silver.

The Channel 4 ist really a Heavy/Metal sound like it was typical for the ´90s.

Channel 2 in the original amp is great for riffing/hard Blues - absolut honestly/straigth in the blueface version and was never compressed! . The Fractal 2.Channel hasn´t got this feeling...........


The 2. and 3. Channel are not this usually Heavysound like an Rectifier - but you recognice this Guitarsound immediately in a band sound. It´s an amp, which got a special Voice....also the hotrodded Marshalls from Peter Diezel.


Both version would be great to have, but maybe Cliff can go back and give those Amps more authenticity???



The best VH-4 sound I´ve ever heard was from Peter Staper, who does the marketing for Diezel. He played it in his coverband - and the whole Bandsound was build around his Guitartone.

He is back in another Band "Helter Skelter", Classic rock. Check there Vids in November, when he play his first gigs.

I´m trying to get my original VH4 sound with the Ownhammer Cabs, but i´m still not there......
 
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